Thanksgiving Arguments: Is Trump a Nazi?

in #trump4 days ago (edited)

No. Neither Donald Trump as an individual nor the MAGA movement as a whole are Nazis. Cut out the hyperbolic accusations! I'm not saying they're good, but please try to be precise when arguing with family this Thanksgiving, assuming you can't manage to keep politics out of the conversation for a nice meal.

Fascism

This term immediately brings to mind images of jack-booted storm troopers, Chicago's late Mayor Daley and militarism. These things are only accidental (albeit usual) political ramifications of the system - which is purely economic in itself. Fascism may be defined as an economic system where although the "means of production" and "consumer goods" are owned by individuals, they are essentially controlled by the state. Hitler's Germany is, of course, the classic example. Krupp, I.G. Farben, Messerschmidt - all were privately owned, but the government told them what to produce, how much to charge, what to pay their laborers, how much profit they might make, and regulated every other aspect of their existence. Just so, are General Motors, Lockheed, Westinghouse and most other U.S. corporations privately owned; but the government dictates maximum prices, quality ("safety") standards, minimum wages and every other detail directly through the various regulatory agencies (CAB, FTC, ICC, OSHA, etc) in addition to profit margins through its monetary, taxing and, increasingly direct "bailout" policies.

There is no difference whatsoever in kind between Nazi Germany's and America's systems; the differences are only in degree and in detail. Scandinavia is another superb example; don't be confused by all the welfare benefits; Hitler's Germany also had a full complement of them.
—Douglas R. Casey. The International Man, 2nd edition, Alexandria House Books, © 1979, p. 77-78

The excerpt above is but one of many attempts to define fascism. Hitler is the go-to example, but Franco, Mussolini, and others are arguably better examples of fascism as an economic and political system. Politically, fascism is an oligarchy with a dictator-for-life as its figurehead operating a command economy under nationalist rhetoric, and enforced by a domestic police state. Foreign adversaries, real or imagined, justify growing and concentrating military power as well.

Note that Casey and others have been warning for decades that the USA and other first-world nations have gradually adopted the mechanisms of fascism while maintaining a facade of democratic order and regular elections. The US in particular brags about its "free-market economy" while having some of the more onerous regulatory burdens in the world. One could even argue that FDR's unprecedented reelection campaigns, economic controls, and anglophile policies were fascistic back then.

The ironic point here is the recent accusation from Harris supporters - the woman who demanded literal price controls and restrictions on free speech while courting the most notorious warmonegrs of the last three decades - that her opponent is the fascist. And let's not forget Trump's supporters were the ones subjected to political and corporate campaigns to censor and silence them. Trump's first term was hardly that of a peacemaker, but he's still the least belligerent president in ages. He certainly advocated a disturbing arrests-first-and-worry-about-evidence-later policy against gun owners and suspected immigrants. He also kicked off the COVID regime which Biden and Harris expanded considerably.

Fascism is also known for a police state with surveillance and snitches and secret police. I would argue the US is already a police state, and has been for years, basically going back through the War on Drugs, Prohibition, Jim Crow, and the Fugitive Slave Acts. Maybe we could extend it to even the Whiskey rebellion. There is little unique about Trump in this regard, and he doesn't even bear full responsibility for the COVID-era policies which infringed on peoples' jobs and freedom, but neither does he get a pass. Biden and Harris merely ramped up those policies.

Trump also left office when he was voted out. Sure, he fought with every clean and dirty trick he could, but in the end, he left. That matters. Every president going back at least to Clinton has been rumored by his opponents as planning to overthrow the election and remain in office. None have. Not even Cheeto Mussolini 4 years ago. I'm not saying he's a good guy, but if he's a fascist, he's the lesser fascist in the last election as far as I can tell.

Nazism

Hitler and his Nazi party were an unusual form of fascism. Hitler had a mythology of Germanic supremacy that went beyond the typical fascist nationalism, and his racism against Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, etc. was atypical for fascism. Mussolini warned of "miscegenation" and treated Libyans as subjects who would never be granted equality with Italians, but his racism wasn't on the level of genocide and ethnic cleansing like Hitler. Well, except for that one thing.

Trump was not a military expansionist, and his newer coalition of supporters including Tulsi Gabbart and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. suggests he may be even less of a warmonger now, although that is not guaranteed with current conflicts in Russia and Palestine.

Trump's daughter has converted to Judaism and married an influential Orthodox Jewish businessman. Trump has also been very supportive of Israel. He's not anti-semitic. I shouldn't have to go over the mischaracterizations of his "very fine people" quote. Y'all are smart enough to read in spite of his idiosyncrasies in speaking off the cuff. He flatly condemned the neo-Nazis and explained in his bumbling way that he understood people who wanted the statue weren't necessarily motivated by racism.

If one were to compare his hostility to illegal immigrants to Nazi ethnic cleansing, one must overlook his actual arguments against immigration and focus solely on the racial makeup of those immigrants. Trump hasn't made any blanket anti-Hispanic speeches, and in fact gained significant support from the Hispanic community compared to prior elections. He's a nationalist, but not a racist as far as I can tell.

Militarism and the Police State

Trump has been no more effusive in praising the police and military than any other politician, has he? His record on war during his first term is not great, but not expansionist. He failed to end wars, but he didn't do a lot to grow them, either. He took some feeble steps toward winding down the two-decade-ling Afghanistan occupation. Then again, he also assassinated an Iranian general in Iraq during his last few days in office.

Fascism is typified by military growth and belligerence, although Franco maintained neutrality for Spain. Mussolini was a warmonger, and continued Italian colonialism with brutality against Libyans and others. Nazism tended to focus on expanding borders to encompass all peoples claimed as "German" by Der Führer. while "cleansing" anyone deemed insufficiently "Aryan." Trump hasn't done anything comparable.

Trump is being presented by his critics as a threat to the bureaucratic regulatory system. That's the opposite of a police state and a command economy. I only wish he were as laissez-faire as his opponents accuse him of being. His immigration policies threaten more deportations, it's based on legality rather than ancestry. I'm not arguing it's good, I'm saying it's not the same. If anything, he might (MIGHT) wind down the war on drugs and roll back government surveillance and taxation of the finances of average citizen.

The Economy

As mentioned above, Trump is no laissez-faire free market advocate. His demands for trade restrictions, border control, and tariffs signal a high degree of economic control. That said, he's also likely to be sympathetic to the concerns of small businesses regarding regulatory burdens and restrictions. Does this also mean massive handouts to megacorporations are coming? Maybe. Tax cuts are not the same thing as subsidies, but I don't anticipate a lot of changes to regulatory capture and actual subsidies in spite of recent rhetoric about his Department Of Government Efficiency.

Speaking of taxes, I have mentioned tariffs and income taxes in passing. Trump knows people don't like the IRS and annual paperwork every April. He also knows keeping interest rates low makes the economy look strong. Unfortunately, he is woefully ignorant of how government finances work. Some of his present inner circle seem like they might steer him away from blowing up more bubbles to maintain artificial prosperity, but Trump is a populist at heart, and he probably doesn't have the nerve to allow the market to correct in a healthy response to years of interventions. Then again, he won't be eligible for re-election, so maybe we'll finally be able to bite the bullet, let the economy correct, and get a real sustainable recovery happen before he's done.

And maybe pigs will fly.

I think we're screwed no matter what Trump does, but again, while I think he's bad, I don't think he's a fascist. He's not trying to build a command economy with de facto government control over industry and trade.

Culture

A common feature of autoritarian regimes is an obsession with molding culture into the vision of its oligarchical rulers. Architecture, music, film, paintings, etc. must exhibit the ideology of the State. The law must shape socoetal mores. Stalin did it. Hitler did it. Mussolini did it. Trump... didn't.

To be fair, there are concerns about how much influence the Project 2025 think tank might have, and many of their ideas are steeped in Christian Nationalism and culture war conflicts. But then again, that is a reactionary response to the folks who have been influencing all of these areas of life from the Democrat side for decades. Some complaints in the mainstream are valid, but a lot are the pot calling the kettle black. These complaints also seek to discredit some of the less-bad parts of the Heritage Foundation recommendations regarding less Federal control over myriad areas of life. It's a mixed bag, and this post is already long.

I don't see Trump demanding statues, murals, or gold-plated elements on government buildings. He's a hedonist, not a Puritan or a romantic idealist. I really don't see his ego manifesting in any significant cultural impositions in spite of the concerns some have. If anything, his record suggests a restoration of federalism where more authority falls back to the states instead of being dictated from on high, especially in areas where culture war conflicts rage hottest, like education.

Conclusion

Trump is not my president. I don't support him, and while I think there are a few specific areas he might bring a better outcome for my liberty than Harris would have, my hopes are not high, and I'm certain he'll do some terrible things I vehemently oppose, too. I'm not arguing he's our savior the way many MAGA hats in the Trumpster fire will. I am, however, arguing that his brand of authoritarianism is not Literally Hitler Nazism.

Is he a fascist? Only if you accept the definition of fascism in the Casey quote opening this post. Is he a threat to our rights? Yes, but not because he's not in lockstep with the LGBTQIA+abortion crowd. I only ask that you to avoid hyperbole, learn what words mean, explore the various definitions people use for them, and create a more nuanced view than we get from social media rage.

Oh, and Happy Thanksgiving! Don't forget to focus on your friends and family. You don't really have any control over politics, but you can choose to build relationships no matter what.

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It’s not very hard to find pics of Nazi and Trump flags side by side. So at least some of his base sees an affinity between the two worldviews. And Trump seems to have soaked up some of his father’s fascist milieu. It’s fairly well known that daddy was arrested at a Klan rally, but what’s less well-known is that it was actually at a brawl between Klansmen and a group of fascists who opposed some of the Klan’s positions. Was dear old dad fighting with the Klan or with the fascists?

Maybe the Donald doesn’t exactly fit into any standard pigeonhole definition of fascism, and there are after all several pigeonholes. Franco’s version of fascism for example had a pro-Catholic ethos that Hitler’s version of it lacked. And Trump/Hitler analogies do seem to miss the mark in that Trump/Mussolini comparisons appear to be more accurate; it’s the buffoon factor. But even if Trump doesn’t quite fit any of the fascist definitions/pigeonholes, he does seem to fit into an authoritarian neofascist pigeonhole.

He has an authoritarian streak a mile wide for sure, but trolls or even true believers with Nazi flags at a Trump rally do not a Nazi rally make, and guilt by such tangential association is flimsy. Time and again, people with such banners are found at the periphery of conservative movements and photographed as if they represent the whole, or they choose less-obvious flags many might not recognize like the iron cross instead of the swastika. But those swastikas do turn up, and such people aren't getting punched.

The Varyag is currently polishing an article on the fascism-adjacent ideologies of National Socialism and National Bolshevism, to be published on Thanksgiving Day because the publication schedule is totally unaffected by holidays, and there is one particular socialist soypod whose holidays are regularly ruined by refutations of his rubbish being published round those times. I think you'll enjoy it.

On a side note, anyone who wants a better summary of Project 2025 than what Wikipedia has to offer should watch this:

I'll have to watch the video later. I know Wikipedia writers and other NPCs fear the thought of abolishing the DOE and other agencies no matter how little evidence there is for real tangible benefits over the decades.

James Lindsay argues there is a reactionary cycle from socialism to fascism as society spirals down the drain, but the communist ideology sees it as spiralling toward perfection. Not sure what to think of his ideas.

Lindsay is wrong, as many have already explained. I like the fact that he drew attention to the occult (specifically Gnostic) origins of socialism, but he wasn't the first, as that distinction belongs to Eric Voegelin. However, the rest of his commentary on society and political theory is rather lack-lustre.
Exhibit A:


Exhibit B:
The Liberal-to-Marxist Pipeline
Exhibit C:
On the Hatred of Humanity

There is nothing "reactionary" about socialism, it is a revolutionary ideology, and all the things that utopian socialists see as "mistakes" of scientific socialism are, in fact, their logical conclusions.
TLDR:
Communism didn’t “fail” in Cambodia, it succeeded, and the death toll shows that. They want to accelerate the process of the “end of history,” so they introduce the state police [sic](should be “secret police”), gulags, mass starvation; these things are part of the process, not a “mistake.” This is where I disagree with James Lindsay, who said these things were “mistakes,” but by reading someone like Stalin, their intent becomes obvious. - Lewis Barton

Dave Smith recently got into an argument with Lindsay, and covered it on his podcast episode #1198, A Response to James Lindsay

Happy Thanksgiving! I'll watch this video later. The article I mentioned is now live, and this isn't the end of my deep dive. I have pies to bake and podcasts from Eurosiberia to catch up on.

I would argue the US is already a police state, and has been for years,

I agree with much of what you have said here, but a tiny tweak of your definition of fascism points to the fact that we are living in a fascist state, and have been for years. I would say fascism in our case could be defined as government being controlled by, and in thrall to, private interests, not the other way around. This was first evident to me during the Obama years, when we were forced to purchase medical insurance, whether we felt a need to or not. I did not, my tiny act of civil disobedience. During the covid con, we had many glaring examples of private interests in control of our executive branches - federal, state and local, Suspension of the constitution! And we did it!!! We were being primed.

I feel very slightly safer with Trump in the white house, but I believe that safety will be very short lived. He's every bit as much a player as the Biden/Harris team, showing but a different face of tyranny, the one you trust for a year or two while they tighten the shackles, with our consent, a bit more.

Hyperbole has allowed the population to supplant reality with surreal visions. Our minds have been disabled and enslaved.

Anyway, good article!!

Corporations are a legal status granted by government, and mega corporations demand political favors while politicians demand corporate support for their destructive behavior, and both thrive primarily though extorting small businesses and workers as net tax consumers. The demands that we "tax the rich" never address how much tax revenue finds it's early into the hands of these politically-connected millionaires and billionaires, and no one wants to pare back the leviathan state of bureaucracy with its revolving doors between corporate boardrooms and regulatory agencies.

I once saw a rather crude cartoon showing government and the mega corporations as stick figures. One panel captioned something like "how the left sees things" had the corporate figure railing the government. The next showed "how the right sees things" reversed the roles. Finally, "how it really is" showed mutual masturbation. I think there is some accuracy there.

People know this, and the Trump/Musk rhetoric about a D.O.G.E. pander to these concerns without any likelihood of real change.