Sorry, I didn't put as much time into my last reply as I should have. Usually when people talk about "rights" a lot, they are thinking in terms of the absolute existence of them, which is why I responded as I did (I've had many of these conversations before). I have no intention of putting red herrings out there, but this is the natural of non-real time communication. We respond to what we think we're reading and there isn't an opportunity for real-time correction and feedback.
I think we agree more than we disagree and I also should have a better understanding of what you mean by Classical Liberalism and Koinonia to have a more constructive dialogue. From what little I understand now, it seems those are very similar to voluntaryism except they allow for a ruler to be put in place. Maybe I'm wrong about that. I didn't see your response to my point about the minarchy/classical liberalism ideals leading to the U.S. military industrial complex we have today. Yes, you can argue those ideals got off the rails and that's what caused the problem, but we've heard similar arguments from those who argue for the "ideal" of communism and complain it was an implementation problem that caused all that human suffering.
I'm not convinced voluntary, mutually beneficial actions are the best way forward, but I certainly hold that opinion currently. I don't call my ideals "Truths" with a big T, but I do think they are pretty darn compelling and I'm certainly open to something better if it exists given the current context of reality.
is there a displacement here
Possibly. I still want to improve the world which may have some evangelical "Jesus savior complex" world view roots to it.
I see politics as a way for managing power over others. I see anarchism not as a political philosophy but the appreciation that this approach is fundamentally flawed as it leads to corrupt centralization of power over time. You may think everything will do that as it's part of nature, but that's where us reading a lot of the same books may help such as Rothbard's For a New Liberty, a Libertarian Manifesto.
Either way, these are fun conversations, but we'd both probably get more out of them if they were dynamic in nature via video chat or something. Maybe we could do that at some point in the future. :)
Hi, yes correct, real-time correction and feedback is impossible, so it pays to read the actual words. We all do this of course. The beauty of this format is you can take all the time you want, and it is impossible to fudge previous claims because we can directly quote each other, irrefutably. It helps keep honesty, takes emotional knee-jerking away, and opens up a genuine possibility for personal growth, bypassing ego - the scourge of our world (and I suspect an interdimensional interloper). I wouldn’t be who I am now if it wasn’t for exchanges like this. On with it.
If voluntarism, a priori, will not allow sovereign individuals to put a ruler in place if they wish it, which is your explicit stated desire here, then it (and you) is (are) authoritarian, by definition. The road to hell is often paved with excellent intentions. To not be authoritarian it would have to hold that there exist foundational principles that trump the ‘good’ that voluntarism seeks. There are – they are called rights/duties – but of course you cannot have that, because that would turn it into… wait for it… Liberalism.
Voluntarism either roots itself in freely held and renewed foundational rights, or it is functionally self-contradictory: – it orders people to be free of rulers, in all contexts; whatever they choose for themselves, because that’s what you think is good for them from your all-seeing perspective now. For someone who has given up on eternity, it seems you have not given up an eternal view. In other words, the power resides in the theory, the idea of ‘the good’ you hold – and not in the free, spontaneous choices of sovereign individuals, capable of revision and evolution way beyond your little view now, in perpetuity.
You are correct, you should familiarise yourself with Classical Liberalism – an excellent modern interpretation is Rawles Theory of Justice. You are right, we have much in common - you are a Liberal (not liberal) whether you know it or not, and clinging to labels like voluntarism/anarchism is doing you no favours. I have spelt out, in great detail now, why.
I did respond to your claim that minarchy/classical liberalism leads to the mi complex – I pointed out to you that liberalism is not, and never was Classical Liberalism, and that one major requirement of CL is that it can only function properly in political ‘units’ of appropriate population size/quality. The Military-Industrial-Intelligence oligarchy is a result of utterly illegitimate centralised power, and so-called ‘liberalism-capitalism’ is fundamentally a pseudo-socialism, throwing out some peanuts of so-called rights, that can be usurped by the mighty state at the drop of a hat. Classical Liberalism does not lead to this, and only a moment’s thought from the relevant perspective will show you that. If you don’t implement the theory, don’t blame the theory for the results of what you actually do.
Well you might not be, but I am certainly convinced that voluntary, mutually beneficial actions are the best way forward. What? Are you entertaining the notion that forced, mutually destructive actions may be a good idea? We’re surely just discussing which political theory has the best chance of maximising our mutual chances of this aren’t we – I didn’t realise that ‘hey, hell on earth might be a good idea’ was on the table? Of course voluntary, mutually beneficial activity is our aim – and our best current model for achieving that is CL – not half-assed anarchism/voluntarism. I’ve explained why (several times and ways now I think), but you’ve offered no alternative I haven’t already included in CL, and you’ve offered no critique of my position. Saying ‘well I just think the world would be better if no one was in charge…’ and then pointing out demons is not political theory, it is wishful thinking.
And of course politics is a way of managing power over others – what else would it be? I absolutely want to manage power over you friend – I want to be sure that you will not infringe on my basic liberty and pursuit of personal meaning and growth for your own selfish purposes. I assume you rather think that a good idea too. You are right, anarchism is not much of a political philosophy – I think it is personal, egoistic posturing; it is a statement of the ‘good’ that you hold to be true for everyone. You don’t want corrupt centralisation. Good, me neither. What causes corrupt centralisation – do the work, stop blaming it on bad guys/rulers? Two things – dumbass individuals (impossible to legislate against) and dumbass political systems. Centralisation – well, disperse political decision-making power to all members (rights/duties basis and democracy slapped on top), and do not dilute individual input (limit the size of the political grouping/society). So, Classical Liberalism, with its essential mighty dollop of decentralisation. And get this straight – whether the people in the next village decide to elect an emperor or not is, bluntly, none of your fucking business – as long as they keep their rights and you keep yours, everything will work out just fine. I will bet you that, in time, no one will be stupid enough to decide they want an Empress – but the transition period, globally, will be fascinating, there will be enough dramatic material for century’s worth of books, films and games…
I remain convinced that anarchists, libertarians, voluntarists, etc, are half-assed well intentioned Classical Liberals, who have been hoodwinked that so-called liberalism is actually the crap espoused by Libtards, a perfectly appropriate label – those jokers are basically clueless nutty children.
At this time a ‘video chat’ thing wouldn’t work for me – absolutely nothing personal; for years I have taped over laptop cameras, I don’t use skype, I don’t use my real name or much that could identify me (I keep my tinfoil neatly tucked in under the ears). It keeps me free to unleash honestly – and some egos, as you well know, really need taking down a peg or ten. I certainly wouldn’t consider you one of those I promise you, if I ever decide to ditch the anonymity it would be a pleasure to chat with you face to face.
One final word: – if you want to build a house, a half-assed foundation and first layer of bricks will probably restrict you to a rather dismal ground level shed – however nice your garden, and however beautifully you designed your upstairs bedrooms beforehand. Your ‘giving up on eternity’ brought an image straight to mind, and I’ll share it (this is not originally mine I should say) – it reminded me of a fish, swimming in the ocean, talking about how it had given up on water. I think if you start paying attention to the actual facts right under your nose, and less attention to flighty imagination and second-hand stories about the world, you’ll be a Classical Liberal blossoming here in eternity before you know it, and I for one think we’ll all be better for that. Db
Thanks for the book recommendation. Unfortunately it's not on audible.com, my normal go-to for audio books, but I'll hunt around for it.
I would be completely find with people voluntarily choosing their own system of government. The key is consent and voluntary action. It's possible you may be straw manning my argument a bit since what you keep describing as Classical Liberalism sounds quite like what I envision voluntaryism based on the NAP to be. If I get around to understanding the labels you're using by reading the book you recommended maybe we can have a more interesting conversation about what specific areas we actually disagree about (not just spend time trying to define the words we're using).
We seem to use words differently. Defensive use of force is a wonderful thing, but I would never describe that as a "power over" someone else. The use of defensive force is a rational, logical response to someone else's initiation of force. The non-aggression principle is clear on this.
Curious where you got that. By "if they wish," you're describing a voluntary agreement which has no conflict with voluntaryism (but might have some conflict with a shared understanding of "ruler"). Again, I think we're just struggling here with arguing for or against words we use differently. Wittgenstein would be amused.
My views on voluntaryism are based on my understanding of where our species is headed as far as Maslow's Hierarchy of needs. It's contextual and completely open to reinterpretation given a different context. To be even more specific, it's based on my experiences living in the United States.
If the U.S. didn't implement Classical Liberalism adequately to be used as an example, can you point to a historical example that helps me better understand your position?
Thanks for an interesting conversation.
Hi, you don’t need to thank me, this is the point of places like steemit in my view, and will probably lead to the acceleration of the evolution of our species – and that’s just our conversation, haha! Well, reading Rawls, or anything else, won’t really help you understand my position, I’m afraid you have to ask me. Truth is, I’ve always been leery of authority in a major way, and I’ve never been a ‘follower’ of any school, or had a core textbook belief system. I’ve slowly come to consider myself a Liberal, but not classical (property rights are of no great interest to me, though they are certainly relevant in the evolution of rights theory). I’m certainly not the libtard sham. My original political study, and what I probably know best, was Marx – I learned enough to find out where he went horribly wrong – but he was quite, quite brilliant, and had some wonderful insights regarding the human condition. It is not wise to throw out the baby with the bathwater. I firmly believe in minimal government, drastic devolution – and lots and lots of community experimentation encouraged by the genius of unshackled human freedom. I recommended Rawls because I came across him briefly nearly 25 years ago now, and my impression was that he was the best modern exponent of the Liberal model. I don’t recall how much he delves into the classics, which as I recall are focused a lot on the issue of ownership. You are quite right about definitions, but if you think I’m strawmanning you’ll need to cite, or I can’t deal with it. Might be, but not intentional.
I’m not an expert on Classical Liberalism, or classical anything. My views are a unique hodgepodge, largely made up in the moment of asking. In discussing this with you I have likely conflated a number of disparate, half-remembered political theories into my inadequate notion of CL, and presented to you as though it were a concrete, pristine theoretical edifice. It will not be. I think the point is the interaction, and the growth that is possible through it. I remain convinced that rights/duties theories, divorced from any concept of ‘the good’, are by far the best method to preserve individual liberty, voluntary association, sovereignty, etc, etc., and I hope it has been valuable for you to see it through that lens. It is clear enough to me that Voluntarism/Libertarianism are an offshoot of CL, and so they must, inherently, be built on the same rights/duties assumptions. You are perfectly entitled to consider yourself a voluntarist consistent with these principles, but I am very wary of rooting that position in terms of how society ‘should/ought’ to be, and I think your arguments are at their weakest when you make claims like ‘don’t want military leaders with monopoly of force…’ etc. I know what you’re driving at, but I don’t think decisions like that have any place in the foundations of political theory, for reasons I outlined last time. I think we are still where we started though – your voluntarist version of Liberalism, particularly anarchism, is a vision of a future that I believe will likely arrive, but when we get there, we won’t even be talking about it, it will just be self-evident. In the meantime, I think for pragmatic reasons it is better to focus on what is easiest to spread in the societies we are embedded in now – basically, rights based Liberalism, encouraging ever contracting government, and ever multiplying and complexifying communities of freely associating sovereign individuals. From most outsiders’ points of view, on most political topics, I doubt there is much daylight between us at all. Db
I agree. Mostly, I think, the problems exist in our own minds and our belief in authority (what Larken Rose calls the most dangerous superstition).
For me, I'm less concerned about making "should" or "ought" claims if I can back them up with reason, logic, and evidence as it relates to human well-being.
I also agree these conversations are key. As more people move up Maslow's Hierarchy and are free to have them (instead of living pay check to pay check, living hand to mouth), then we'll get there that much quicker.