I'm of the opinion that a little bit of burning can go a long way to effect price. Not all my witness colleagues agree with me, but this is what I think:
Eth has better price and is terrible to use because every transaction has a burn.
Steem has lower price and is great to use because every transaction is free (if you have the rc).
I designed Steem Engine to have infrequent, but expensive burns so that people constantly have to purchase the token and burn it to get the tools they want. It's kept the price of ENG quite high relative to the price of Steem even after a few big token dumps, but it hasn't effected the ease of use for the vast majority of people interacting.
Will burning make a difference? How much burning do we need?
Here's bittrex. It's btc vs steem. It's a low volume trade these days. You'll notice that the entire asking side is 15btc. It's not a ton of money. It's ~$150,000. In total that would be ~750k steem.
Let's ballpark annual Steem inflation at 20M. 750k/20M = ~4%.
So, if we can figure out how to burn 4% of the rewards pool over the course of a year we can wipe out what's on bittrex now. I'm presuming that people will go to an exchange to purchase tokens they don't have to do a thing they want.
This might be indirect, so someone usually sells everything they earn here, instead they play a game, and with the game they record a high score and burn steem to do it, it dimishes the sell pressure just slightly, now someone else comes along and buys Steem because there was slightly less out there for sale. So, I'm counting someone burning somewhere will mean someone else being forced to buy. This might be wrong, but thus far it's my general experience.
My math isn't perfect, but my point is that it doesn't have to be a huge amount
So, my hope is that we as a community can start working on some simple things that can burn Steem. My three generic catagories are:
- Advertising
- Customizations
- Games
For Advertising I'd like to see all the front ends start having ads that display, but you have to burn Steem to get the ad. So, some gets burnt, some goes to the site operator, some goes to content creator. Maybe Steemit will be willing to burn some of the Steem they take in for ads.
For customizations I'd like to get my profile on Steem to have some things that I had to burn Steem to get. Badges, avatars, or whatever.
For games they could be really simple things. Coin runners, open source games, idle clicks, 1980s era RPGs that come back, but the key thing would be having a small burn for stuff players want. Maybe it's free to play but to get your score up there you have to burn steem.
So, let's try to get just a really simple thing up there
Take an afternoon or something and build something that burns Steem to do a thing, maybe you make a little money for the thing too. That's ok. Maybe you count on ads later. Whatever, let's just get a really simple thing up somewhere that burns a hint of Steem.
I'll help make it successful. I'll help get it connected to tribes. I'll help point people there.
People that makes things like this I could pay directly, help get witness votes, give tribe tokens or eng, help advocate for money from the SPS, or something else.
I think this is pretty important, so if you create something even really simple let's talk.
If you need inspiration for simple games check out itch.io. There's open source games so look for those too.
If you have ideas or build something please use #burnsteem and message me in Discord. You can find me in PALnet at minnowpond.org
I like it. What about if we made the option for a faster powerdown, but there was a fee to do so and that fee was paid in steem and that steem was burned? I have heard a few others talk about such an idea, but I like it as well.
Also, I think we need to try and create more incentives for people to want to power up steem. I actually think the EIP may go the opposite direction in that and we are still feeling those effects in terms of steem's price as a lot of people powered down when that became clear it was going to be accepted and adopted.
I am not sure what the best incentives are, but I don't think a 50/50 reward split for SP holders is enough of an incentive to get people to power up more steem...
Pay for power down is a great idea.
People would definitely spend coin for an expedited powerdown.
super idea
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The Liqwid (not sure that's right) service take a fee and people seem to be OK paying that and so I think this is a good idea 👍🏽
but then is steem less secure. is a part of protection the funds in wallet, after a week only 1/13 of your steem is gone if you loss your active key. So that would need higher key then active otherwise i dont like it.
This is true - more risk.
We can make it three days or a week instead of completely instant.
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Yes. It doesn't have to be instant, just faster than 3 months. I think many would pay a couple percent of their stake to power down within a week... as opposed to 13 weeks.
I agree with the burn for instant powerdown option. It’s a natural fit to STEEM.
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I was actually thinking about a dApp for this but it's almost Impossible to make if it's not implemented in the blockchain.
It would need users to risk their master key account and would take 4 weeks and 2 days for the liquid steem to be received, because liquidator needs to ensure there is no account retrieval.
I suggest 10% fees burnt for instant power down no less
I was thinking like 5%, but the exact number hasn't really been ironed out. If instant power downs were done though, it would be a significant security risk compared to now... I was thinking like a 3 day power down personally.
Yeah imagine all the big whales powering down and exiting in one day or even 3 days, witnesses will be affected immediately because all of the missing voting power. This will probably destabilise the blockchain if it's implemented.
A middle ground needs to be found
I was thinking more along the lines of if someone's account was hacked. Right now if someone's account is compromised their steem is still safe as long as it is powered up, giving you time to recover your account. However, if there is an option to instantly power it down, it means having your account compromised could mean loss of all funds, even if powered up.
This is the first time I hear this.
It is for me a great idea.
An automatic powerdown will have a fee, example 1% and it will be burn automatically too! Good, hope SteemitInc can implement it. 👏🏽
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Yes, we should be able to do something like this, but it may not be for a while as it will require a hard fork.
So first off, I'm not all that knowledgeable about Ethereum so I could be wrong here, but don't the gas fees go to the miners? As far as I'm aware there's no burning going on there.
In any case, burning is good for token prices...I don't think it's possible to argue with that, it's just simple supply/demand. But, asking people to burn STEEM (or any token) is just flat out never going to work. Asking business to create a product that requires burning STEEM is no different. A few people here and there might burn some to be altruistic or make some type of point, but at the end of the day it's money and people aren't going to burn their money.
To make burning work, it has to be part of the platform. This is what you're doing with Steem Engine and it's working great there (as far as I can tell at least). Steem already has this a little bit with account creation. You can burn 3 STEEM to create a new account. This is a great example of how burning can be used as part of the platform. Of course, after HF20 now you can claim free accounts using your SP so I suspect not many people are doing this anymore.
In my opinion, SMTs should work very similar to how Steem Engine works - you should have to burn STEEM to create tokens and even more to enable other features like ICOs, market trading, staking, proof of brain distribution, etc. As an example, Tron has a built-in smart contract for creating tokens that requires you to burn 1024 Tron to use.
Overall though, even if these all sorts of burn mechanics were implemented I doubt it would make any meaningful dent in the STEEM supply. If we want to focus on supply, I think the focus should be on reducing inflation and/or the Steemit, Inc selling; however, I think the real focus should be on the demand side.
If SteemIt, Inc wanted to I'm willing to bet they could make a deal with some big company like Samsung, or get STEEM listed on Coinbase, and just one such deal like that would do far more for the price than anything we might do on the supply end.
I don’t agree. Making people burn is not impossible. We can “incentivize” them.
For example: all posts upvoted by bidbots downvoted to 0 by @steemit. And replace top trending spots on steemit by auction spots for the biggest burners. Why would Steemit, Inc do this instead of earning ad revenue?
Because they hold 25% of the STEEM supply and seeing the price move up is much much much more profitable than some ad revenue.
More examples: any business that burns a lot receives big delegations, free promotion, etc.
Not implementing this is just lazyness, and we can’t rely on more people buying STEEM for ever. At one point the market will dry up.
Even more examples: “burning has to be part of the platform” that is a quote from you. We could probably think of 5 good ways to burn STEEM in 10 minutes and making so from the blockchain code and the way STEEM works.
A good recent proposition was from @theycallmedan when he proposed a 5% token burn for instant powerdown.
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you are 100% right.
if tokens should be burned that should not happen artificially. It should be part of the system and code.
SMTs give a way to do it.
What do you think about burn Steem for a SMT and get some RC on the SMTs?
I think this would be really nice for some guys only use a SMT and its also good for Steem.
Lets burn TASK tokens by @heimindanger whose system DOES burn tokens to compleet TASKS to actually get peopel top PROMOTE things on twitter or youtube instagram etc
IMAGINE a Steem proposal System or delegation funding project to even create a new Hard Fork 22 or 23 POST SMT improvement process where we can actually BURN STEEM like TASKM tokens
https://task.steemwhales.com
I know @aggroed is already a whale in this project by @dtube creator @heimindanger which lets people get paid in steem engine tokens to do tasks, AND CAPTCHA tasks ... I think you can make aliving off this if you do it full time 8 hours a day and live in Venezuela or Nigeria where you can piggy back off someoen elses pooled internet and shipping container or mud hust and we cnexpand like the prospectors game but in real life
like the @wafrica gameI helped convince @surfyogi to start and we just have to create a game mockup and a proof of concept working dapp, liek prospectors, and mayeb we can license prospectors and clone itf or a modern day GTA style version
also id love a game that works on steem for teh cheap accounts and eos for the marketcap
Tokenize burning. Create burn coin. Add sink to burn coin.
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I was talking in discord the other day about creating ASH. Every STEEM you burn, you get an ASH.
If nothing else, you can flex your burn on others.
Hi @nealmcspadden
question is: what would give any value to ASH tokens. Without reason to buy it price would only keep dropping down.
It would just be for status
If you can buy them on the market then owning them won’t be a proof that you burned. So you can’t really show off. So no one will buy. Could maybe work though.
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I like this idea. I want burn power.
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It's nice idea.
To add on, maybe use all raised steem in burncoin sales as steem power that daily upvotes a burn post. Helps to burn future inflation
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Why don't we have a powerdown fee (and burn it)?
0.5% seems reasonable...
What a great idea!
https://steemit.com/steemit/@ats-david/pscu45
https://steemit.com/hf21/@ats-david/pto3dw
If only all of these “new interface” owners would actually put some minimal effort into improving on the Steemit.com design/features. Why was this not one of your goals from the beginning?
What are you guys waiting for?
Also...
Maybe convince STINC to burn what remains of their ninja-mine instead of diluting all other stakeholder influence with your new delegation system.
Talk about something making a huge difference. There it is. Remember when you were once for that? Before you were given control over their SP?
Of course they won't burn their stake, it's the only incentive that keeps them working for the chain while all witnesses are trying to make money on the side or doing nothing.
However, burn for ads is a must, I agree.
How about burning all the rewards from posts that decline the rewards. I'm guessing that would have to be changed with a fork. Or maybe add a burn option in the post settings... Steempeak has done an awesome job at other stuff. What do y'all think? @asgarth, @jarvie, @r00sj3, @dmytrokorol
That could just be setting the beneficiary to NULL?
There's also talk of allowing the beneficiary to be the SPS account... but they only use SBD right? I guess there's have to be some sort of account that converts steem to sbd and sends it to that SPS account. Or the SPS account could have an automated buy SBD from market with any Steem they get.
I agree ;)
The conversion from Steem to SBD is automatic when you set the SPS account as a beneficiary. That is indeed part of the 0.21.0 release.
That's great news. So we could set up a beneficiary and then it'd work pretty easily. Thanks for the feedback.
I agree that having some burn mechanics would go a long way already to stabilize the Steem price. This still doesn't solve the issue that there is little to no reasons to power up and hold a lot of SP these days (at least for average users). When I started on Steem a few years back, you really needed SP to do better on the platform. Right now with all the upvotes coming from the Dapps & Tribes (Steemmonsters, Actifit, Drugwars, esteem, 3Speak, Dtube, PAL, SPORTS, ...) there is almost no difference to how much Steem you can earn/mine between having 100SP which gives you all the RC you need and having 10k SP.
How about this for an idea: If all the DAPPS linked their upvotes directly to the SP someone has giving bigger upvotes to bigger SP holders in a fair way there would be an actual reason to power up and at the same time cut out a lot of abuse since it's easy to just make a new account and start farming all the free dapp upvotes. I honestly want to power up more but I see no reason currently and all I see is people powering down and dumping their steem for steemmonsters cards, different steem-engine tokens, ...
Looking at the numbers there seems to be a connection between dapps / tribe tokens and the price of Steem that continues to go down. What Steem needs is good reasons to hold SP along with some systematic burning mechanics it could do wonders for the STEEM price getting it back into a positive spiral.
I’m not sure if you’re right or wrong about that, but one of the problems with SE and their tokens/tribes is that they mostly don’t airdrop on Steem users. So there’s no reason to hold the underlying token. And maybe their goal is to not use or care about Steem and its tokens...but then why bother developing on Steem at all?
Seems to me that people are just looking for more ways to extract value from Steem rather than try to add value to it. Funny how a lot of the new SE tokens/tribes airdrop on PAL holders...as if they’re just paying tribute to Aggroed and his cult. It’s not surprising though, seeing who the people are.
And as far as anyone can tell, not a single shit has been given about the entire SE platform by anyone outside of Steem. It just appears to be more insider circle-jerking...just like Steem/Steemit has been for most of the past three years.
How innovative!
Exactly. More incentives for powering up is what we need.
Hi @costanza
Indeed. Burning is always great addition, but it's just an addition.
Circulating supply is growing way faster than we could burn tokens, so this is not a real solution. Giving people non-financial reasons to STAKE their tokens should be the way to go.
Simple example: if I would know that publications everyone feed are being displayed with large stakeholders downwards, then I would know that I'm increasing chance that my followers will see my publication in their feed if my STAKE would be high.
For many people and businesses that would bring great value to their staked tokens. Value that isn't based on financial rewards increasing current supply.
Yours
Piotr
the more of a market place there is the less people will want to exchange for FRNs
buying and selling durable goods should help the Steem economy too.
does #burnsteem work with #spud ?
I couldn’t agree more. Burning Steem and incentivizing powerups is what we need more of.
Here are a few thoughts on burning Steem:
Just some initial thoughts.
I like the idea of fiat token sinks where people who want fiat instead of going to exchanges can use a sink that pays out in their local currency but in doing so burns a portion or all that steem I means it’s leaving the crypto space technically! This makes for scarcity but also enforced the fact that the Steem you sell now you’re getting on the cheap and future steem will be way more valuable! It should be almost a punishment or counter intuitive to exchange Steem for fiat!
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I would love to have "promoted" post spot in condenser. Like 3rd spot in the post list would always feature post from promoted section. The more you burned, the higher chance to be displayed you have (esch page view is s new chance). It can be tested in tribes condenser first, then implemented on steemit.
Probably I should add steem bounty for it :)
I would love that aswell but for this we need to stop bidbots. Because with bidbots you can get the 1st and second spot and you don't even need to pay... makes no sense.
Not really because you can spend little on promotion and still your post can be displayed in the reserved spot. Just not every time the page loads :)
Steemit.com recently asked what people think about banning users comments on their blog and I suggested they should implement it as a Service where people have to pay for it to in order to ban any users or comments.
Unfortunately Steemit.com is not thinking like a business should do. I hope that they will support any burns of Steem for Service in the future.
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Technically, we can burn STEEM by sending it to @null right. So if ever we come up with a projects that burns STEEM, we put something into the code that sends it to @null for every burnable transaction (e.g., purchasing an item in-game)?
yep
Noted. Thanks.
In a twisted universe, @null turns out to be an account owned by Dan Larimer
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hahaha! That would be crazy!
Ok... So if I want to burn Steem I would just send it to @null?
@aggroed @videosteemit
And Dan Larimer is actually Ned himself. 🤤😨
Dear @aggroed
Great read.
I've been wondering for quite sometime already - why transactions on steem blockchain need to be 100% free. Nothing is ever free. We're paying for things in form of hidden taxes or hidden costs.
The fact that Steemit Inc is selling that much steem every month to cover their expenses is a result of this "marketing slogan" about free transactions.
I would rather like idea of each transaction above 1 STEEM be charged with some low fee, knowing that those tokens collected in form of fee will be burned.
That would surely lower steem selling pressure.
To some degree. The fact that someone is burning doesn't yet mean that there will be more buying power (someone else forced to buy).
At the same time total daily rewards are probably always way higher than tokens burned. So circulating supply will be constantly growing faster and faster. Can burning catch up with it? I'm seriously curious.
I LOVE THAT IDEA! I would love to be able to pay for ads with STEEM or PAL. Promoting does work very well already. This could work even better.
Yours
Piotr
They are not 100% since you need to hold steem to make them. Holding is like a fee. It's much better because users don't feel they are paying a fee.
The alternative - Ethereum for example, makes a very annoying user experience.
Idk why burning should makes sense?
if there are more ways to use steem power on steem, the demand should increase automatically.
I think when SMTs come on steem, they should be able to be equipped with RC by burning steem in them.
Like you create a token and burn 100k Steem in them.
Now the RC are distributed to the tokens that were created.
maybe because you can not vote with the Steem power you burned, a few bonus RC.
I think if a burn comes in place, it should be a real use case and not artificial.
@aggroed
Is it possible to fork and halve inflation?
Because actually we have with SBD anyway a much too high inflation. That should be a better way then burn or what do you think?
It should be really positive for Steem and all holders. Like the 8% (maybe much higher) to 2%-4%.
I would love a fork like this
Yes demand for Steem Power will increase but at one point if everyone gets on steem than there is no one outside to get more Steem Power, so it's not a final solution. And in the meantime, the price is getting destroyed, which doesn't help development on steem, which makes people leave.
but with the SBD conversion we had last year arround 15% to 20% increase in steem supply. I dont think it will destroy something if inflation goes to 4%.
In future if the reward pool is shared with 10 times more users, that will be also feel impossible to earn a lot of steem.
So it makes no difference.
SBD conversions are going to stop at some point. When steem starts to go up, sbd creation will do the opposite, it will reduce the inflation of steem, making it very scarce.
So SBD Is bad in bad times and is good in good times. It just makes steem very volatile, so that when it crashes, it crashes more than other coins. But when it pumps, it will also pump more.
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I have been writing in favor of burns for a long time now, problem I was facing was that the people who wanted to burn are the ones who could only burn little in absolute numbers (even though much in percentage value) and people who had huge amounts of absolute numbers didn't see the value of burning even a little percentage of it.
Long story shirt, little people at the time had way less steem to burn than they do now, in proportion, so they wouldn't make a difference - and whales were opposed.
Now the distribution looks better, and I'm pretty sure the same whales are opposed, but at least now the bases look a little more solid and can help out.
My only fear is that the little guys burn it to help the big guys leave faster. Because let's face it, there's a trend of it going on as far as whales dumping.
Cheers
Yep, burning only makes sense if absolutely everyone are doing it on around the same relative value.
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We have planted already
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Let's save and restore Abongphen Highland Forest
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Plant trees with @treeplanter and get paid for it!
My Steem Power = 24697.85
Thanks a lot!
@martin.mikes coordinator of @kedjom-keku
Yip that's pretty much what I brought up in Slack yesterday, Steem needs more sinks like Steem Engine has.
When SMT's come around perhaps some of your innovations can be applied there, ie token operators need to stake 1 SP per user, or need to burn x Steem to get oracle functionality or burn x to get a premium token name.
@aggroed, Great to see that you are trying to encourage new Ideas💡 to bring value to Steem. And when someone says that i am ready to provide the guidance then that's the boosting aspect. Keep up brother.
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How do you think we can affect anything price wise while Steemit is dumping hard?
Don't get me wrong. I don't mind them dumping. I just don't want to piss against a hurricane ;)
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We can create a betting website that uses steem for sports betting and gambling and most lost steem be burnt to reduce the supply
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A downvoting burning steem dapp delegated by steemit inc!!!
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It's time to burn a bit for sure, maybe burning should be linked to sbd. If sbd gets below 1$ than burning needs to start or steem engine fee becomes standard. Like 0.1% of every post gets burned.
This post has been resteemed by @witnessnews.
Follow @witnessnews to keep up with active witness updates.
Im feeling the burn
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Not sure what I even think about this idea but I will throw it out there for debate. Thoughts on a Steemit Inc delegated vote bot that burns the incoming Steem? With everyone getting a downvote, hopefully abuse could be kept to a minimum.
I think this is key to increase the value of STEEM.
There are many ways as you mentionned to do so. A vote-Selling System could be a good idea but how would it be competitive versus normal vote-sellers, I do not know :).
The internal SMT exchange should be written to require a small Steem burn per transaction.
How about burning the ninja mine stake?
Yes, great idea. Then Steemit, Inc won't have any incentive to work for the chain, and since most witnesses do nothing, steem is as good as dead.
LOL
yea, in a decentralized system, we need a centralized dev team, right
Decentralized development is utopia. The only coin that has that is Bitcoin, and the bitcoin code is absolute shit. Bitcoin core did not have a hard fork for many years now, and this is what makes it sound money. Sound money shouldn’t change because of a team’s wishes.
Steem (or any altcoin) should never try to compete with bitcoin on this aspect. Every altcoin is centralized, even ethereum. When the DAO hack happened, they just rolled back the transactions and gave money back to investors. So they literally can do whatever they want with the chain, and people will follow Vitalik’s team.
What’s beautiful avout DPOS Is that we cam manage to kind of decentralize development up to 21 witnesses. However right now, all witnesses combined don’t do a tenth of what steemit inc is providing. Hopefully this will change.
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I guess you also think anarchy is utopia
it's nature. ;)
Good guess, I do think this. Nature isn’t always good. There is a right balance between anarchy and government, right now, we are waayy too far into the goverment’s side.
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Slaves are merely people who let themselves be enslaved. At least in our modern society.
Infinite(Steem) supply generated by rewards pool, by all means— fire up the grill 🔥
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Good insight, thanks. Like&Resteem
This is the most important idea on the chain if we want the value of STEEM to rise. It’s so obvious it’s kind of driving me a little bonkers.
Please keep talking about this.
why you burn elmo? so mean.
When i am at 50k sp i will think about it.
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1000% agree.
In particular steemit.com has to start burning steem because they set the example for everyone. If steemit burns, everyone burns. It doesn't have to be ads, it could be promotion spots on the trending page, instead of a separate promotion category which no one sees.
That way they can keep advertising revenue. But of course to do that they will have to stop bidbots, since people will never pay when they can top spots for free.
Soooo the solution might be to make it mandatory for bidbots to burn 30% of their rewards or something like that. If they don't, then @yabapmatt could remove them from steembottracker.com and Steemit, Inc could downvote all the posts the upvote, making them useless.
This is centralized, yes, as it uses Steemit, Inc's stake. But effective.
whenever possible try to burn SBD first to get out of the haircut
Nice
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Incentives really brings out d best in products and encourages d investors more fully.....this idea is good because it will help boost and upgrade the value of steem, my opinion though
Maybe burning STEEM is a good option when it becomes too big.
I think now STEEM could be shared unconditionally e.g. to Newcomers, by delegation and likely nice transfers.
Pouring the STEEM out over the community may work differently.
🙄🙄🙄
I will burn 4% of my future post rewards in solidarity with this message!
Some other low hanging fruit would be regular reward decliners like @steemitblog to burn their post rewards rather than decline them.
Would suggest burning {send to @null} Steem to recharge Resource Credits {RC}, instantly. Where the price would depend on what the network can handle. More resources used, higher demand, the more it will cost to recharge (part) of the RC.
50/50 reward split and token burns sounds like a plan let's do it!