So... on this Chaz thing in Seattle. Neither you nor I have a damned clue what is going on there. I’m not there, you’re most likely not there, and it will become ground zero for misinformation in the media. It will be painted by the right as a serious left communist threat to our democracy. It will be painted by the left as a dangerous, violent mafia-style chaos with evil guns everywhere.
We can try to piece some things together via pages like https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Autonomous_Zone to at least know what is being said about it, but we won’t really know how those experiencing it feel. I imagine there’s going to be a lot of misinformation and propaganda around this very soon.
Why? Well, becuase it is dangerous. The idea of a free people governing themselves is dangerous to those in power because it exposes their power as not only unnecessary, but coercive, destructive, and toxic. Think it’s no big deal? Here’s what the “most powerful person on the planet” (the U.S. President) tweeted about it:
@realDonaldTrump (June 10, 2020). "Radical Left Governor @JayInslee and the Mayor of Seattle are being taunted and played at a level that our great Country has never seen before. Take back your city NOW. If you don't do it, I will. This is not a game. These ugly Anarchists must be stooped IMMEDIATELY. MOVE FAST!”
Why would a few blocks get so much attention? Why does it need an immediate response by authoritarian power? What makes it so dangerous?
Well, here’s a few key quotes from a document you maybe haven’t read in a while but should: https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/declaration-transcript
In Congress, July 4, 1776.The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America, When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
...all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury.
The irony is not lost on me that this document was penned during a time when all people were not at all seen as equal and those putting it forth were actively destroying the “savages” on their frontiers and taking their land.
I won’t romanticize the past becuase it was brutal and unjust. But even then, they understood what oppression looks like and they were seen as heroes for destroying some property like tea in a Boston harbor. They put their names down to sign away their lives and their fortunes because they knew the importance of freedom.
Do you?
Are you so scared of change that you’d prefer to be ruled? Are you so scared of others wanting to experiment with freedom that you’d want them shut down and put in their place?
Chaz may turn into a communist hell hole. It may turn into an anarcho-capitalist mini utopia. Either way, I’m glad it exists. I hope for hundreds of thousands of experiments just like it.
Why? Becuase that’s the start of a potentially resilient, evolutionarily stable strategy. What we have now is a monopolistic monoculture of governance. It is failing, and we have no robust replacements becuase we are too afraid of experimentation and change. We want the illusion of security over actual freedom.
I hope we learn a lot from this. I hope we see thousands of seasteading examples as well, becuase it’s almost inevitable that even within a small community, there won’t be 100% consensus. If your home could just float over to another community, that’s real freedom. I wonder why the Thai government got so scared of the latest expression of that experiment?
Maybe it’s becuase some people are waking up to thier enslavement.
Question is, what will they do with that awareness?
They are afraid of the idea that people might be able to self-govern and be autonomous from state power. There is a LOT of vested interests that will want CHAZ to fail horribly and I am 100% certain there will be Agent Provocateurs active in the area.
I hope they can make it work and not too many people get hurt, but I fear it's a setup from the get go and it's only a matter of time until the stormtroopers get sent in to make an example of them all.
It's amazing to me how some people see this 100% differently (such as this comment).
Maybe people really are afraid of a group of people demonstrating practical self-sovereignty.
I think it is definitely a great opportunity for observations. Based on the analogy of "decentralized blockchains" I hypothesize that anarchy in these zones will be short lived as people will try to seize and follow power. I believe it is in human nature.
It might be in human nature. I hope not, but it might be. I was thinking about that recently.
I thought of you and our previous discussions when I read that a warlord is in control of CHAZ and it is already running short of food.
https://www.zerohedge.com/political/it-only-took-2-days-seattles-autonomous-zone-descend-chaos
Zero Hedge is definitely not MSM and publishes alternate views from the right and left.
You are quite correct that all governments' practical powers come from the barrel of a gun. However violence abhors a vacuum. As soon as one violent governing power exits, one or more new violent powers will pop up to replace them.
The best we can do is what the US Founding Fathers sought to do - ensure that those holding the guns are responsible to the people and that there are lots of checks and balances.
It worked well for almost 200 years but now the US system is completely broken.
Some interesting reporting going on here: https://www.reddit.com/r/CapHillAutonomousZone/
I like Zero Hedge, but they certainly have their biases and love to post things which get shared and get clicks, which is understandable as that is the business model.
I think we can live without violence. I may be wrong, but I think we can.
Violence is as natural an occurrence as sunlight, throughout the natural , living world.
And we are part of the natural world , not separate from it.
Wishing for it to be so, doesn't make it so.
There is zero evidence of a violence free ecosystem, ever existing.
Based on evidence, I would say that you are wrong, not 'maybe' wrong.
Violence is normal.
To me, this sounds like a naturalistic fallacy. "It's nature, so it's morally correct."
Point to many other system in nature which is advanced as human social interactions which include language, law, contracts, etc, etc.
Sorry, I don't buy it. Chimps are violent, no doubt about it. We evolved to dominate the world because of our cooperation. There's a whole back story to this relating to the whites of our eyes, the size of our brains and the limitation of hips requiring a more nurturing, cooperative community to protect and nurture new borns, etc.
The human brain is special and cooking (pre-digesting our food) to create a high neuron count per calorie had a lot to do with that: https://www.ted.com/talks/suzana_herculano_houzel_what_is_so_special_about_the_human_brain
To me, this sounds like a naturalistic fallacy. "It's nature, so it's morally correct."
Morals have nothing to do with it. It's just nature.
We evolved to dominate the world because of our cooperation
Agreed - but that is the negotiations part of interaction. When negotiation falls apart - you're still left with violent action.
The evolutionary biology doesn't take away - or alter from this innate behavior.
Fights on Saturday night, to tribal confrontations, to war.
The same patterns _forever repeat themselves, irrelevant of historical times.
I have the hunch that what we need is just bonobotize us a lil bit more. :)
I find this conversation very fascinating.
You both make good points @lukestokes @lucylin.
I agree with @lucylin that violence is part of nature and there is an unhealthy risk of trying to deny we all have that. However, I also believe in choice thus @lukestokes we can create the reality we want by example.
Don't know whether this has any relation... but just the other day I finished playing Red Dead Redemption 2 - really awesome AAA gaming experience where you take the hero character and navigate different parts of the wild west.
However, without realising it... I probably massacred over 1,000 people over the course the game. Headshots, groin shots, shotgun to the face. And I must say I enjoyed it massively.
Of course this does not make me a murderous psychopath in real life... but why do I get so much joy from these virtual actions. So, I've come to accept that there is a part of me that enjoys violence particularly when exacted upon things which are morally aligned to my worldview... haha.
Point is... maybe that's how we as a human society can manage our violent tendencies and create a non-violent world... through video games, cryptocurrencies, Bitcoin and HIVE. 😄
I think the government should shut off the telecommunications, electricity, water and sewage. Any other services should also be temporarily removed. A border to leave and enter should also be set up (both sides). Full ID and biometrics scanning for anyone coming or going. In other words a non-violent seige.
There is a pandemic going on. Let the problem take care of itself. It will be an example of how painfully stupid this idea is. If they were doing it in the mountains, a forest or desert, no one would care.
"the government" doesn't provide those services. Actual people who work in actual facilities do. Why can't CHAZ pay for those services just like any other organization. Disney land still gets services, right?
The way you worded this comment, it sounds like you think a group of people demonstrating self-sovereignty is dangerous. Why is that?
They did not have a free amd fair referendum or negotiate at all. Making their lives uncomfortable by cutting external support will send them to the negotiating table without the need for excessive force.
Now let's talk about Cuba, Iran, Venezuela and... erm... well, I think with those three will be enuff.
Comparing repressive countries and nations to odd political experiments is difficult.
The CHAZ people can walk across the street to escape, I assume they are all legally in the US and if they aren't it's a pretty stupid thing to be involved with.
In Iran, Venezuela,Cuba they cannot easily leave and aren't mostly there by choice.
Yep, that may well be true, but not for the reasons you might be thinking. But by the financial 'sanctions' and 'economic' limitations that a foreign power who has no candle on this funeral is artificially imposing over a sovereign and independent country/population.
Don't just buy the wrong propaganda while staying away from the source. You actually has to live things closer from the inner core in question in your own flesh to have a minimal idea of what the hell is really going on abroad.
I think mixing up what is happening in those places with CHAZ is unfair. CHAZ is about domestic issues of US and not foreign policy. Maybe a few of them want to reach out, but mostly it's dissatisfied American citizens having a protest.
I strongly disagree with most US foreign policy. The rich world has become too reliant on the broken exploitative system.
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