Thanks for the comments, I think these kinds of discussions are fascinating.
You know, I don't have a problem with the idea of God having a plan for our lives. I have a problem with the idea that it's immutable. I think the bible shows that God's plan doesn't always work out.
Matthew 23:37 - "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
Here, what God intended was prevented by the will of the people of Jerusalem.
-Jonah 3:10 - When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it.
Here, God changed His mind because the people of Nineveh repented.
I see it more like a parent, who has great plans for their child, and works hard to provide opportunities for the child. In the end, though, the child isn't going to be a Dr., or a Lawyer, or President based on what the parent wants.
I have a question about your views, though. If God created us as sinners, which is what I think you mean by saying sinning is our natural inclination, in what sense do we deserve punishment? I mean, if we were made to sin, why should we be punished for doing what we were made to do? Also, if you have God making us sinners, then how is His punishment of us just?
One last from the Bible:
1 Cor 15:21 - For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
If God made man with the inclination to sin, doesn't that mean that sin actually came through God, and not man?
Thanks for the interesting discussion!
Agreed, I am definitely loving this discussion so far! Thanks for conversing once again :)
When you say God's plan is fixated, you mean it can never be changed? I would have to say yes, that is indeed His nature. Perfect and divine, does not make mistakes!
In discussing Matthew 23:37, I think you bring up a good point, but a limited one. Yes, God laments over Zion for being rebellious and unwilling. However, I don't think God is disappointed in His plan not coming into fruition; rather, I think it is a disappointment in their rebellious hearts. Yes, Jesus Christ had emotions on Earth, but, do you really think the Creator's sovereignty and wisdom is undermined by His unwilling creation? If God has to stoop low and do it from the will of man, God's sovereignty should be questioned immediately.
Furthermore, that passage in Jonah 3:10 is amazing, where He displayed His mercy and love toward the people of Nineveh. However, do you think without the will of the Lord imputed in their hearts, that the people of Nineveh done the same thing? I think the will of God far surpasses moral reasoning. We can all be moral/immoral by our own will; ONLY by the grace of God, we can experience a true transformation, one that is beyond morals.
I would say that your comparison with God and humanity, and parent and child are OK, but not completely accurate in what I think it is. God made us in His image, yes? As God's image bearers, we should strive to be like God? Where does the standard of God come from? Ourselves? If so, is truth relative or absolute? I think truth is absolute and we have come to know God. However, the power of sin has disconnected us from knowing God from birth, and made us sinful people. Now, the origin of our sinful nature started way back in Genesis 3, and it is the same way up until now.
God made sin permissible in this world because he made human's in that manner. He gave us the cognitive abilities to make decisions on our jobs, friends, etc. Did we as babies have a choice to be born with the parents who made us? There is room for God to do His will according to His great purpose and plan.
God and sin do no co-exist because God is perfect and sinless. God did not per say create us to be sinful; rather, God made humans to be image bearers of Christ and to glorify His name, but not under compulsion. He gave human's the ability to make decisions; or else, we would be robots just proclaiming God's glory. I believe God wants humanity to glorify Him willingly, by the grace of our Savior. Through the decision made by Adam and Eve, we have all fallen with them unfortunately into sinfulness. This is why we are imperfect in this lifetime. Sin is outside of God. He made it permissible for His ultimate glory. This is my take on it. I think we were all born imperfect for His sovereign and bigger plan.
Without a sense of Hell, moral reasoning is pointless. We can rape, murder, steal all we want without being criminally and eternally punished.
And finally, no, I don't think sin came through God. God gave Adam and Eve only one condition, yet with their hearts (deceiving as it was) they drew away from Him. This is the nature of man, imperfect, broken, and needing of a Savior. This is why God came into flesh and resurrected and defeated death. For our sake.
When you say "If God made man with the inclination to sin, doesn't that mean that sin actually came through God, and not man?", you are mixing up the Creator and His creation. The Creator gets credit for His creation, not what His creation is responsible for."
Let me give you this last scenario. Mark Zuckerberg, most prominently known Facebook co-founder. There was a suicide in the past few months shown on one of the platforms of Facebook Live, which was probably something Mark and the team made up for the GOOD of Facebook and its users. News flash globally to show the news of the suicide that happened on Facebook Live. I leave you with this: Is it under Mark's responsibility that the person attempted suicide? He is the creator of Facebook, so why don't you blame Him for this because He provided the platform and He allowed people to do as they wished. It would be irrational. Let me know what you think!
Thanks for the discussion! God bless :)
When I talk about God's plan being fixed under predestination, what I mean is that God, from His point of view, has already created everything. The end has been written just as surely as the beginning. This really strains the idea of free will, IMO, because if God has already determined that it would happen then man really doesn't choose. God chose for us when He made everything. He chose by making us the way we are. He chose by making the circumstances of our lives what they are. He chose by giving us the parents we have, country we live in, tragedies we suffer.
In the scenario where man has actual free will, then the change in plan wouldn't mean a mistake, rather, a changed attitude towards man based on man's decision. Like in Jonah, God changed His mind about destroying Nineveh. It wasn't because the plan was faulty, it was because God is Just and Merciful and He responds when people repent.
I think you unnecessarily tie sovereignty to foreknowledge, too. God being sovereign doesn't mean He's moving everything around like some grand chess master playing a game with Himself. Rather, it just means that God is the owner of everything, and He is the ultimate authority. God can intervene here on earth if He wants, but He chooses not to do so in a way that intervenes with free will.
It seems to me you want to have it both ways. On the one hand you say the people of Nineveh repented because it was God's will that drove them to it, yet Jesus says it was His will that Jerusalem repented, yet they did not. Is there conflict between the will of the Father and the will of the Son? I think not.
I'd like to hear what you think being made in the image of God means. From my perspective, I can't see how you can reconcile an inborn propensity to sin with the image of a totally good God. If God was totally good, and we were made in His image, where did the propensity to sin come from?
Where do our standard come from? I'd say the inner witness of the Holy Spirit, working through the reading of Scripture is a good start. The problem with that is that we all take different meaning from what we see there. This dialog is a good example. So, how does absolute truth fit in? Well, I believe there is absolute truth, I challenge the idea that man is somehow entitled to it, or that it is even something we are capable of attaining. In fact, I think this is at least partially what was behind the fall. The tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represents the ability to tell right from wrong. Man was never supposed to try to figure everything out on his own. Man was supposed to walk in the Garden with God and let Him be our guide. This is why the New Covenant is written on our hearts. I think this is one of the promises that has been partially fulfilled and when Jesus comes back the relationship will be perfectly repaired and we will have direct access to the Truth. Until then, I think it's best to be open about things that we can't know for sure.
You say you believe God wants humanity to glorify Him willingly, but how can this be true if God made the world knowing before hand that most people would never even hear about Him? It doesn't seem like He really wanted the Chinese, Indian, African, or Muslims to glorify Him if He just made them to live their entire lives in ignorance of Him only to suffer Eternal conscious torment for it.
Free will means that when we are presented with a choice, we really have a choice. It doesn't mean we are presented with every choice available. Some people are never presented Jesus as a choice so they can't choose. Did God want them to chose Jesus?
I totally disagree that you need Hell for moral reasoning. In fact, I find it counterproductive. If we go back to Jesus' favorite analogy of God as a Father, we are the children. Would a parent want their children only to obey because they are threatened with violence? Don't parents want their children to eventually learn what is right and wise and then choose to do those things on their own? Further, you complicate the issue of justice with the idea that people who God made predestined to never hear the gospel or accept Jesus, with the express purpose of torturing them forever.
I don't think I'm mixing up God and man with my understanding of inborn inclination to sin, either. If God made man with the inclination to sin, and He knew beforehand that man would sin, then God is the one who invents sin by creating an agent for sin where none existed before.
In your Zuckerberg example, the simple answer is that I don't blame Mark because he didn't know this was going to happen. He's not God. If your scenario said that Mark somehow was able to see the future and he still did everything the same, despite knowing the outcome, then I would say he is morally responsible.