"Im pretty sure you cant surround the police with a ton of guns and intimidate them."
Actually, you can. They are outnumbered over 300 to 1. Groups of individuals have stopped cops from kidnapping people simply by forming a barrier around the individual about to be kidnapped. The cops depend on the majority simply accepting the "law" as it is. When the majority doesn't, or even just enough to outnumber the cops, their purported power diminishes greatly.
"...however, again most of them think they are making the world a better safer place."
What they believe is irrelevant, since it contradicts reality. Plenty of bigots, rapists, and serial killers have thought that they were making the world a better place. What one "thinks" is not an argument for their existence.
"I believe the police should be pressed on the issues of how law is enforced, but not during a traffic stop."
So they should get a pass when harassing people over victimless crimes? Without their magical powers of revenue generation, they would cease to function. Why wouldn't you ttack a power center, unless you're not actually trying to create change?
"They have been given the right to kill you. Its in their job description. They are trained to go so far with you and then take you out if you resist to that point. Its a scary job."
Arbitrary edicts don't create a "right" to do something. You grant them legitimacy by using such language. I will do no such thing. No one has a "right" to harass, kidnap, cage, assault, and/or kill another who is not aggressing against another's person or property. And a scary job? Please. They voluntarily accepted a job where they are paid in extorted funds, are tasked with enforcing ALL laws (even though none of them know anywhere close to even half of the laws, and most of those laws violate people's actual rights), can kill with virtual impunity, and refuse to rat on each other (that thin blue line) for abusing the fuck out of the public at large. This "scary job" nonsense is government indoctrination talking. It's just_not_true.
"They are people i cannot stress this enough. "
Yup, and people who are responsible for their actions. They cannot hide behind "the law". If they could, then the result of the Nuremberg Trials was wrong. Every, single cop who has harassed, kidnapped, assaulted, caged, and/or killed someone for any of the litany of victimless crimes (which is most of the registry, since the only actual crimes are those of property including oneself) is guilty of an actual crime. That would make virtually every cop an actual criminal. And their "out" is always, "We don't write the laws..." This is the failed Nuremberg defense: "I was just following orders." Didn't fly then; doesn't fly now (unless you reject logical consistency).
"They see what is written and hear what is said about them and yes they even know the different reasonings that people use for their dislike of them."
As they should. Except most of them reject the criticisms based on a list of strawmen and appeals to emotion, since they can't actually defend their positions through logic.
"There is of course a need for police."
No, there's a need for security, not police. Private, competing security companies could provide better protection, at cheaper prices, than the monopolized and coercive (you are forced to pay for inferior services) enforcement arm of the State ever could.
"Our lust for violence and blood has reached a dizzying level and is daunting to conceive how we got here."
You might want to study some history. The State has always been a violent institution, and it's at the heart of most of the violence and blood lust.
I understand all that you rebutted me with and have heard it many times. I agree with the statements you made. This information has been true for hundreds if not more years. We have seen power struggles of freedom and somehow always wind back where we are today. What is the overall solution? You may think by resisting on a daily basis by actually getting yourself in a situation to do so is benefitting the cause and if you die youre a martyr and die with some sort of honor i suppose? Simply said i believe in living in reletive peace as much and as long as possible. Things are bad and i would like to see a different type of government free life. Its either all in or not at all right? The only way to make the change in our life time is for everyone to rise up now and get it done otherwise we are only a nuisance to the current controlling powers that be. After so many times of being jailed or fined and no change happens it simply looks childish on the face of it and that attributes to people shying away from change when they can for the most part live simple happy self serving lifes even with government is controlling them. Perhaps they dont like it either, but they arent gonna rise up with out serious efforts for change. The movement needs to get organized and serious and get into the same venues that are used by the government to sway the people and indoctinate them. If government can do most of its evil work with minimalviolence then so can people that want a government free society. Fight fire with fire means use the same tactic that work for the opposing power.you have to use logic and reason to paint a memtal picture that is good with the majority of society and they will folow. If we arent cattle then why do we keep following others as though we are?
"You may think by resisting on a daily basis by actually getting yourself in a situation to do so is benefitting the cause and if you die youre a martyr and die with some sort of honor i suppose?"
No. I believe resisting tyranny on a daily basis is the only way to show others that they need not live in fear of government reprisal. The more that resist, the less power the State has. It has historically only taken about 10% of a given culture to change said culture. This has nothing to do with martyrdom.
"The only way to make the change in our life time is for everyone to rise up now and get it done otherwise we are only a nuisance to the current controlling powers that be."
And being a nuisance is an integral part of creating that change. Ideas like that are discussed at further length here. http://badquaker.com/archives/3640
"After so many times of being jailed or fined and no change happens it simply looks childish on the face of it..."
You seem to be thinking in terms of civil disobedience. That's not what I'm about. A civil disobedient acts with the intention of being caged for their cause. I'm about non-compliance: the disregarding of victimless crime laws because they are unjust, not because I'm trying to make a political statement in hopes that laws will be changed. The quickest way to make any law invalid is to make it unenforceable, not via legislation.
"The movement needs to get organized and serious and get into the same venues that are used by the government to sway the people and indoctinate them."
I think working outside of those venues is even more powerful. Look at what people like Jordan Peterson and Thaddeus Russell are doing right now on the education front. On the lower levels, homeschooling/unschooling numbers are climbing. The independent media appears to be growing, too, and that's working outside the bounds of what's regularly considered journalism. Getting people to see the problems with the State isn't enough. Most people want a solution presented to them before they'll even consider an opposing view. That's why I believe it's important to create these systems now, even if it there isn't enough popular support, so that others can actually viualize what is possible without the State.
"you have to use logic and reason to paint a memtal picture that is good with the majority of society and they will folow"
The only issue with that line of thought is that, unfortunately, it is very difficult to use logic and reason to convince someone out of a position that they did not use logic and reason to arrive at in the first place.
I think we actually agree on a lot but perhaps our methods are different. I do appreciate the feedback, though. It helps me reconsider my ever evolving world view.
Actually i love the way you respond. You do look at things with a good sense of logic and have shown me that some of my views may, actually are, skewed. “The disregarding victimless crime laws” you speak of, what are they and what exactly do you do? Is it all out ignoring the law in question or do you simply go about your day without any regard for so called law or legislation?
I agree that we have a large amount of independant media growing and it is encouraging, however, we already have war starting within the ranks. Independants that are almost changing there views mirroring the msm or getting enough success that they are softening on their stance. Im hearing about it quite often. Is this going to be a problem for the people? If someone is brand new just woke to freedom thinking and stumble onto one of these almost anti freedom then they could be lost yet again and never return. Also aside from being on tv they are still using the same tactic as the msm so i feel its an area they have done what i suggest and use the same tools to sway the people.
"The disregarding victimless crime law you speak of, what are they and what exactly do you do?"
To me, most laws involve victimless crimes. The only ones that don't involve crimes against property (including the self). Things like assault, rape, murder, theft, and fraud are all actual crimes because they are an attack on someone else's person or property. Because these also all fall under the idea of "natural law", they are, imo, redundant as "government laws". Any laws outside of these are, imo, simply arbitrary edicts put forth by would be tyrants. As far as what i do about them, I just try to live my life without aggressing against anyone else or their property. I'm not looking to be a martyr, so i won't blatantly disregard laws that run the risk of me being shot on sight by the police, but i will ignore those that don't put me at such an immediate risk. A risk/benefit analysis is usually necessary for such things, and it is up to the individual to decide which is greater to them in each situation.
"I agree that we have a large amount of independant media growing and it is encouraging, however, we already have war starting within the ranks."
Yes, this is true. Unfortunately, the draw of wealth and/or notoriety can be too much for even independent journalists who start out just seeking the truth. I personally just try to take in info about a particular subject from as many sources as possible, so that I can sift through it all and find what i be to be the most consistent/plausible narrative. You are right to question whether this could backfire in regards to those new to the ideas of freedom. I have watched it happen before, where a friend of mine was close to giving up on the system but was actually turned back to it because of some of the bs he found on this side. This is why i have long since taken the approach that one can only provide others with information, and then allow them to come to their own conclusions. Sometimes it takes something actually happening to that individual, like being harassed/arrested by the cops for a victimless crime, for them to start to make the connections, but at least at that point they have some knowledge to build on.
This is why I am part of a number of podcasts and radio shows. I am just trying to put ideas out there, while trying to live my life as freely as i can as to provide an example to others. I never expect to see long term results of what I and others are doing in the present, but that doesn't deter me. I just take one look at my kids and realize that I'm doing all of this more so for them than for me. My hope is that they will at least be able to live a little more freely due to my efforts, and that their generation will help build on what others have started.
This all sounds reasonable to me. Believe it or not i tried resisting the government on running without plates and insurance. I made it a year before state patrol pulled me over. Needless to say i was stuck with a huge fine i cant afford and was even threatened with being caged. I still might be if i dont get the fine paid. Who knows right?
Yeah, unfortunately that falls under that risk/benefit analysis that i mentioned earlier. In that book that I shared the link to, it is recommended that you don't do anything that would draw attention to yourself (not having the "proper papers" would qualify), but I've always struggled with that one. Personally, I do like to push boundaries so i stick my neck out there more than most people would. That isn't to knock anyone who doesn't, because those hefty fines and the possibility of a cage in your future are very real. There do have to be risk takers in such movements, though. Ones willing to take the extra step, not out of an idea of martyrdom but just because they recognize that someone needs to be the spark. That is why one of my favorite quotes of all time (overlooking the use of the word patriot, which I have issues with) is still from Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens...
"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."
Ya man! I need to go read that book. I have heard awesome quotes like the one you shared many times over the years. I think i might have missed something i feel i will like. I like sticking my neck out as well. However im broke and broken and i dont have friends per say because i worked and went home. My children are almost old enough to spread their wings and fly and my plan is to essentially become that hermit and disappear onto some property if i can find it reasonably and in a not so harsh environment where government has made it near impossible to live free. That is my dream and hopefully my retirement. I want to spend my last years benefitting me and not so much others as i have been serving others my whole life.