You are viewing a single comment's thread from:

RE: The Gentiles Knew the Torah

in #gospel7 years ago

I read through Leviticus 12 (short chapter) and this is the closest I could find:

And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. Leviticus 12:3

Leviticus 12 does command 8th day circumcision, but most of the text refers to a woman's uncleanliness after childbirth.


I think you may have meant Exodus 12:

And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This [is] the ordinance of the Passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: But every man's servant that is bought for silver, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. Exodus 12:43-44

He continues:

And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. Exodus 12:48

A Gentile (stranger) is by definition not "one that is born in the land", unless he is a slave in Israel, that was bought with silver and circumcised by their Israelite master. Once circumcised, that slave may eat of the Passover sacrifice. As Gentiles grafted into Israel, we were not bought by silver or gold. Peter explains:

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1 Peter 1:18-19

This is Passover language, but not the literal Passover lamb in Jerusalem, but the sacrifice of Yeshua.

Paul talks to Gentiles about the importance of keeping the feast of Unleavened Bread, but does not say Gentiles may EAT the Passover which is slain in Jerusalem according to the commandment. This is consistent with the Torah.

This explains why when Paul was traveling among the Gentiles, he mentions"the days of unleavened" several times (Acts 12:3 and Acts 20:6) but does not mention Passover except in regard to Yeshua being our Passover. He tells the Gentiles in Corinth:

Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth. 1 Corinthians 5:7

The Gentiles knew the Torah. They knew that they could not participate in the EATING of the Passover sacrifice, because they were Gentiles (foreigners). But they REMEMBER the Passover by the instructions of Yeshua to "Do this in remembrance of Me". The "Me" here is the Passover Sacrifice. Gentiles may remember the Passover and keep the feast of Unleavened bread. Yeshua is the Passover which the Gentiles must eat, whether circumcised in the flesh or uncircumcised in the flesh.

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. John 6:53

This is for the Gentile to remain in the Royal Law of Love, even while uncircumcised in the flesh. Yeshua is our righteousness, being the Word of God made flesh.

For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the Law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. Romans 10:5

The Pharisaical "sect of the circumcision" believed that NO commandment of the Torah could be kept while uncircumcised in the flesh. Traditionally, the circumcised could not even enter the home of uncircumcised Gentiles.

And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, Saying, Thou went in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them. Acts 11:2-3

This is not a Torah issue, since the Torah does not forbid circumcised men to eat with uncircumcised men. This is a tradition.

But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common. Acts 11:9

Likewise, Gentile adult circumcision, outside of the situation described in the Torah, is also a tradition.

Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19

Sort:  

"This is not a Torah issue, since the Torah does not forbid circumcised men to eat with uncircumcised men. This is a tradition."

Okay, we agree on this.

That is good!

"A Gentile (stranger) is by definition not "one that is born in the land", unless he is a slave in Israel, that was bought with silver and circumcised by their Israelite master. Once circumcised, that slave may eat of the Passover sacrifice. As Gentiles grafted into Israel, we were not bought by silver or gold. Peter explains:"

In the Torah a stranger (ger) is someone who lives in the borders of Israel but is not a citizen, is not an Israelite. It would be like someone coming to be a resident in America from another country and working there but not permanently, unless later they changed their mind and applied for it and were accepted and went through the process of becoming a citizen, which in the Torah would be getting circumcised and observing the Passover.

There is nothing here about slaves. And there is nothing here about a purchase. That matter of slaves wanting to keep the Passover was already finished. It is now talking about strangers, which are not limited to slaves.

It goes on to state that NO uncircumcised person is allowed to eat of the Passover.

Abraham and his whole household getting circumcised is further proof that circumcision in not limited to 8 day year old children. That is just when it is mandatory for children to be circumcised and not any earlier because any day before that and they will bleed to that. And circumcision is important as the sign of the covenant and that is why one is not to delay it extra days after or else face being cut off.

It is true that God specifically states in the Torah that no uncircumcised person is allowed to EAT the Passover sacrifice. More specifically:

There shall no stranger eat thereof...

Then He continues to explain the ordinance of the slave foreigner (who was bought with silver) partaking in Passover. Then God says:

when a stranger shall sojourn with thee...

I read this as a continuation of the exception of the law "no stranger shall eat thereof", that slave foreigners who are sojourning with the Israelites must become circumcised before eating the Passover sacrifice.

But every man's servant that is bought for silver, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.

God gave Abraham the covenant of circumcision:

“This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised. And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you. And every male among you who is eight days old shall be circumcised throughout your generations, a slave who is born in the house or who is bought with money from any foreigner, who is not of your descendants. A servant who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant."

The covenant between God and Abraham and his decedents is eighth day circumcision.

And he gave him the covenant of circumcision: and so Abraham begat Isaac, and circumcised him the eighth day; and Isaac [circumcised] Jacob [on the eighth day]; and Jacob [circumcised] the twelve patriarchs [on the eighth day]. Acts 7:8

In addition to the covenant, God also instructed Abraham to circumcise his adult males and his foreign slaves bought with silver. This is consistent with the passage in Exodus 12. It is not a command for Gentile believers to become circumcised as adults.

Your quotes about uncircumcised nations keeping the Passover as spiritualized in Yeshua assumes the New Testament is true. It is not. Have you actually compared the Tanakh prophetic proof texts of the NT with them in the Tanakh and looked at the full context of the Tanakh? They are ridiculously taken out of context. Plus the irreconcilable contradictions between the Four Gospels, like the Last Supper you just mentioned, which the Synoptics say was on the Passover but in John it says instead it was before and that Yeshua died on the Passover.

Concerning the timeline of the three synoptic Gospels and the Gospel of John please see below:

https://steemit.com/christian-trail/@ironshield/bible-study-my-response-to-mark-aka-mr-easyfix

If you've decided the New Testament is not true, it's not my place to convince you otherwise. That is between you and your Savior, the God of Israel.

I believe you cannot keep the Torah without listening to the words of the "Prophet like Moses" which are spoken in the Name of the Most High God of Israel.

I will raise up for them a prophet like you [Moses] from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him. Deuteronomy 18:18-19

https://www.oneforisrael.org/bible-based-teaching-from-israel/21-ways-yeshua-is-a-prophet-like-moses/

What is the Royal Law of love?

The Royal Law of Love is the Torah, it is the standard by which we will be judged:

If you fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, You shall love your neighbor as yourself, you do well: But if you have respect to persons, you commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit no adultery, yet if you kill, you are become a transgressor of the law. So speak you, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that has showed no mercy; and mercy rejoices against judgment. James 2:8-13

"The Pharisaical "sect of the circumcision" believed that NO commandment of the Torah could be kept while uncircumcised in the flesh. Traditionally, the circumcised could not even enter the home of uncircumcised Gentiles."

I don't think this is an accurate assessment of Pharisaic beliefs. They actually taught that certain commandments of the Law were mandatory for the Nations to keep and they called these the Noahide Laws.

This is in regard to "believing" Pharisees, ones who have accepted Yeshua as Messiah. They were outraged that uncircumcised "believers" were keeping Torah in the diaspora while remaining uncircumcised. They took it upon themselves to 'initiate' believers into the Pharisaical sect of that time. Adult circumcision is how they "make proselytes". This was the same sect that Yeshua called hypocritical - meaning they were teaching the Law of Moses, not doing it themselves, while expecting their followers to do it perfectly.

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves. Matthew 23:15

The Noahide Movement began in the 12th century with Maimonides' interpretation of the Talmud. It became popular again as the modern "Noahide" movement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahidism

I do not agree with the Noahide laws for Gentile interpretation, as the conclusion of Ecclesiasties states it's the whole duty of man (not just Israelite) to fear God and keep His commandments:

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, For this the whole duty of man. For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, whether good or evil. Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

I also do not agree with the idea that the Acts 15 decision was James mandating "Noahide laws" for Gentile believers. It's a square peg in a round hole.

The laws given to Noah are good and righteous, but not complete. For example, in the future Gentiles will come to Jerusalem to keep the feast of Sukkot.

Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles. Zecheraiah 14:16

This is not included in the instructions given to Noah, but do pertain clearly to Gentiles (nations). The instruction for Sukkot are in the Torah. (Leviticus 23:34)

"Likewise, Gentile adult circumcision, outside of the situation described in the Torah, is also a tradition.

Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19"

I don't believe in Paul, but I disagree that your interpretation is necessitated here. He also mentions being in slavery and marriage in the same type of language in the same chapter. One could interpret this as Paul saying one did not have to get circumcised due t the present distress (1Corinthians 7:26), the great tribulation they were going through in those times, fleeing from their persecutors, which would have been extremely difficult, next to impossible, if one had recently been circumcised and was in the state of recovery. Just like how it would be hard do so with as a man with a wife and children to take along. And slaves being disobedient to their masters and trying to get out of their position would cause their masters to be angry with them and think that religion is bad, giving it a bad reputation, and bring more persecution on Christians.

Overall I don't buy it though that Paul was pro-Torah. How almost everybody who reads his letters comes to opposite conclusions and have done so all throughout Christian history, including me when I first read the Bible, 2Peter admitting he's hard to understand and easy to twist into lawless, therefore admitting his epistles are incoherent, and certain hints in his epistles and in Acts, these things lead me to think that the traditional Church position on Paul is probably generally the correct message he was trying to get across.

Paul was absolutely pro-Torah. It was his life. If he was not, he would never have been accepted among the believers in Jerusalem, who are also pro-Torah. Zealous for the Torah!

Then they [the believers in Jerusalem] said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the Torah. Acts 21:20

Our modern translations have mangled Paul's already difficult language in his letters to the Gentiles. Paul refers to the law of the flesh (sin) and the law of the Spirit (Torah). But anti-Torah and Anti-Jewish interpretations by Christians have destroyed his point in many cases. This is a very ancient misunderstanding of Paul. Even in his day, rumors were circulating that he was teaching to forsake Moses. A 2000 year old rumor, still circulating today.

But they are under the impression that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or observe our customs. Acts 21:21

Paul did not teach the Jews or Gentiles to forsake Moses (God forbid), but rumors were circulating in Jerusalem that he was teaching Jews to forsake Moses and not perform the 8th day circumcision on children. This is a false testimony.

Paul participates in the Nazarite vow (Numbers 6:1–21) to demonstrate his adherence to the Torah spoken by the mouth of God.

Therefore do what we advise you. There are four men with us who have taken a vow. Take these men, purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know that there is no truth to these rumors about you, but that you also live in obedience to the Law. Acts 21:23

Paul did abandon the Pharisaical practices, which Yeshua called hypocritical. To other Pharisees, made him look lawless. But Paul made a practice of obeying the commands of God over the traditions of the elders. There were numerous attempts on his life for this. Peter and the apostles also followed this practice:

But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men. Acts 5:29

They loved the Torah. Yeshua is the Torah made flesh.