Vaccines: GOOD - Covid Passports: VERY BAD - Debate with respect.

in Deep Dives3 years ago (edited)

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source the image is by JOEL SAGET/AFP VIA GETTY IMAGES and is used without explicit or implied permission.

Vaccinations. There's been a lot written. A lot of science and a lot of rumour-mongering and general bollocks. I prefer to follow the science which from my reading tells me that vaccines improve your bodies' ability to fight the virus if you are unlucky enough to catch it. They reduce hospitalisations, deaths and slow down the rate of transmission and infection. It's not a silver Covid bullet.

I also understand that the risk of serious illness or death from Covid, far outweighs the risks from the vaccine, and risk there most definitely is, albeit a tiny one.

This is the science as I understand it.

It therefore follows that the decision to receive the vaccination is an individual's choice and they will make that choice based on their own personal risk assessment and personal liberty to make their own choice about their own bodies.

So yesterday, I had my first dose of vaccine, and I am very grateful to the Thai government who provided it, it was MY choice, so I will mention a few facts about MY experience.

I didn't die. I felt barely anything when I had it. I have had no side effects other than an extremely slight ache in my arm last night. I am 55, male, 83kg, type 2 diabetic, managed without drugs and I had the Comirnaty (new name for Pfizer) vaccine.

These are my facts; we are all unique and yours will be different that's why personal choice based on an individual's circumstances are so important.

Except it's unfortunately NOT always your choice...

I detest the conspirator theorists and bullies from the anti-vax brigade but equally, I detest the bullying from governments, forcing people into making the decisions they want them to.

The reason I mention this is because today in Thailand, we hear that it's possible that restaurants will finally reopen next week with 50% capacity but ONLY for people who are fully vaccinated and will need to show their local ministry of health app to prove the fact.

This is disgraceful because its divisive and it's bullying, it's stupid because there are only 27% of people in Bangkok fully vaccinated thus far and from a business perspective, the many small businesses who are on their knees here will open their eateries and have expenses to pay for barely a higher return than they get from the takeaway sales.

We have been in full lockdown for 3 months down and have a legally enforceable curfew from 9pm until 4am. Is this the best that this government can come up with? We can't even go to the park for some fresh air for they all closed too. Is there any wonder people have such disregard for their 'governors'?

I follow the science, this government seems to ... make it up as they go along, all the time massaging the facts. Science says that Covid can be transmitted through the air hence the 2m distancing rules which is sensible. Thailand says close the parks and piss everyone off, there is zero evidence-based science behind that.

Governments need to focus on coping and dealing with this pandemic primarily while still continuing with research into defeating it in the background. To be fair though, it seems Thailand is beginning to see the light. Many hotels here have suddenly stopped attempting to lure in domestic visitors with incredibly low prices and deals and instead have cancelled all their future bookings and are turning their rooms to hospital / convalescent use. In a country with a rotten and elitist private healthcare system, this will hopefully help more of the vast majority of the population on very low incomes have a back-up of good, affordable quarantine and convalescence facilities if and when required.

But back to the Covid passports. I don't seem to see much factual research or evidence-based findings on the benefits of allowing such a vast majority to enjoy preference over the minority as we are beginning to see all over the world. Forcing certain employees contractually to be vaccinated, stopping people from watching their favourite band and having a beer. All very dystopian.

This is for and against debate should simply be that. A debate and it irks me that government feels it necessary to end the debate by forcing rule of law. I know many became involved in Hive because they share a common philosophy of wishing to reduce the interference of government in their everyday lives, but after reading many screaming banshee style headlines on Hive it saddens me that very few people have the ability to put forward reasoned arguments without resorting to fallacy and disrespect.

I again refer to the Stephen Covey who said;

Firstly, listen to understand and only then, speak to be understood.

Have a great weekend. Stay safe and happy and make your own choices wherever you can but always take responsibility!

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Don't confuse advertising with science. Also, while science isn't perfect, what better methodology is there than the scientific method?

I'm not. They really did that shit with DDT and Asbestos.

Oh, I know they did it. But how much science was actually used in determining safety in those cases?

Much more than today who refers to an experiment as a "vaccine." Straighter outta Webster:

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God bless you man, I hope you make all the correct decisions. I will never pit my opinion against yours, I merely choose to blend facts with what they call "science" and form my own completely uneducated decision because I'm undoubtedly the dumbest guy in this conversation.

I think only by having these conversations (in a respectful, non-confrontational way), can we really hope to reach the best decision. With so much information, disinformation, and opinion out there all blended together, it isn't always easy. I tend to take my own anecdotal observations into account as well. My personal observations and those of the very few healthcare workers I know say that the vaccine helps prevent covid or at the very least, helps prevent hospitalization from it. I have not been vaccinated yet but will probably be at some point in the not too distant future. I know many people that have had the vaccine with no obvious side effects (certainly they didn't become magnetic) or only mild side effects typical of vaccines. And while I am not close to anyone who has had severe complications from COVID, I do indirectly know a couple of people that have died and a couple of others that have had severe cases with long lasting complications. I have not known anyone, directly or indirectly, who has died from the flu (except my great grandmother who did die of pneumonia, possibly as a complication of the flu...but she was 98).

I also wouldn't go so far as to say the various COVID vaccines are, in general, "experimental". As someone with libertarian tendencies I put more stock in the actual science done in the creation and testing of the vaccine than it the specific regulatory actions required by the FDA, a government organization. COVID vaccines do stimulate antibodies and they do prevent the disease to an extent. Not 100% of the time but that is not uncommon with a vaccine. They also make it more likely that if you do contract COVID, symptoms will be less severe. The flu shot does much the same thing with the flu. In other words, I think they fit the #1 Webster definition just fine.

As far as side effects, I've heard all kinds of claims but seen little proof that side effects are worse with this vaccine than with others. As I said, of the many people I have known to get the vaccine (Moderna or Pfizer in most cases), none have had any problems...and also can't stick spoons to their arms.

I will say I do not believe in "mandates" whether they are mask mandates or vaccine mandates. Whether you get the vaccine or not should be your choice. Whether you where a mask or not should be your choice (or the choice of the private property owner of any property you may be visiting).

Incidentally, DDT IS quite safe outside of prolonged exposure with about the same toxicity as aspirin. DDT's potential risk comes from bioaccumulation. If you are exposed to it regularly over time, it can build up in your system causing problems. I think when it comes to COVID vaccines, the science is pretty solid. The only outside risk is long term but i can't think of many things that cause significant effects far down the road unless you are exposed to a lot of it over time...radiation being one counterexample but there aren't many like that. I've heard various conspiracy theories about the vaccine, for example it is for population control, but if that were really the point, there's no reason to come up with a whole new vaccine...just put whatever it is in one of the already required vaccines for school or in the flu vaccine...same for any marker or tracking device or whatever else anyone thinks the vaccine is really for.

On the other hand, the science behind masks is pretty clear too. They don't work. At least they don't work unless you use N95 or better masks AND wash your hands regularly AND are careful about how you use the mask AND your are careful about not touching your face AND you socially distance. Then they work ok...but those other things are probably more responsible for your protection even then. People defending mask mandates that quote studies will quote ones about how many particles a mask blocks. However, more real world studies directly about mask use and virus spread say that whatever particles those masks may be blocking don't really matter because they don't make a statistical difference. However, a mask MAY help you (and others around you if you are infected) if you use something better than the typical paper mask or cloth covering AND you are VERY careful.

All of this is complicated by the fact that the government will lie to "protect" us. For example, they will say things like "natural immunity isn't as good" or "doesn't last as long" as the vaccine. This is BS. Natural immunity from actually having COVID is far better and lasts longer (at least this is what actual science shows). However, people are stupid and will do things like have "COVID parties" to get infected when they hear things like this. This was a more reasonable thing to do with chicken pox before vaccines were available because everybody was going to get it and if you waited until you got older it would be worse and possibly even deadly. COVID is a little different. It is more deadly in general and even though it is no bubonic plague, it's still not something you want to intentionally infect yourself with. Plus infecting yourself does not give you permanent immunity. The biggest problem isn't that COVID is likely to kill you, it's that it can hospitalize enough people to overwhelm hospitals causing unnecessary deaths. It only takes a fraction of a percent.

Anyway, all just my opinion based on my own personal observations of the science and those around me...

Dang dude, I appreciate this winded response. Ain't every day you get some nice emotional engagement. Thanks.

Are you a biochemist? What about neuroscientist?

I'd say we're about 50/50 on agreement vs disagreement and if there's anyone else tuned in to this conversation, this is how to discuss differences cordially. It's not a big deal.* This is the same way a doctor learns how to understand physical side effects of a medication he prescribes yet has never consumed. 🤔

I only know what I've read, propaganda from every direction, likely some of the same sources you read. Interestingly enough, I recently read a study that said fake noose travels 6x faster than real noose.

That means when you finish this sentence, you'll have received 6 pieces of fake noose.

Lol..point taken but science, or screaming banshee? It's Friday. Let's smoke, drink eat fast food soaked in pesticides and celebrate our impending demise :-)

I'll smoke to that!

👊🏼

Haha voter ID racist, but vaccine passport not.

But, in all seriousness, it'd be the perfect opportunity to slide that voter id deal in.

Were you given any information detailing the ingredients? A pamphlet or website link?