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The freedom with which we are imbued physically is radical.
My freedom to swing my fist doesn't really end at your nose, that's just a societal ideal. No force naturally springs up to interfere.
The universe foists upon us a great and terrible freedom, one that we scarcely dare consider or exercise.
Though we are profoundly limited by the possibilities presented by physics, cultures work to psychically limit the still incredible scope of what heroism or atrocities their members could commit.
Unless of course we have no free will, or everything is deterministic.
My freedom to swing my fist doesn't really end at your nose, that's just a societal ideal. No force naturally springs up to interfere.
But it does my friend, it does; that force would be me :-) And then there'd be a fight and we'd have given up on all the good we could have achieved by joining our forces. And nature actually decided we need our forces joined in order to survive in the face of whatever the universe throws at us.
The universe foists upon us a great and terrible freedom, one that we scarcely dare consider or exercise.
Which is a good thing; we are social creatures after all. We are as free as however big a society allows us to be; absolute freedom is a pipe-dream or enjoyed by ourselves, removed from our fellow human beings.
Though we are profoundly limited by the possibilities presented by physics, cultures work to psychically limit the still incredible scope of what heroism or atrocities their members could commit.
The key word being "members", which implies we are indeed part of the greater whole that limits the atrocities at least...
Unless of course we have no free will, or everything is deterministic.
Well, as it looks now, free will is a neat illusion we need to make sense of reality of our place in the universe. But that's a whole other can of worms...
As always, your thoughts are highly appreciated, @a-non-e-moose ! Thanks so much for feeding the soul ;-)
I take your point. Though it may be a bit of hair splitting over whats 'natural' or not, I'd say that such requires a similar exertion of this somewhat transcendent conception of freedom.
Also decided may be a bit strong when characterizing nature, but I can appreciate the utility of social drives. The great struggle of our innumerable ancestors leaves us well equipped in many regards, though deficient or maladapted in others. I reckon much of our troubles come from the rapid and largely thoughtless changing of our environment, however.
"...absolute freedom is a pipe-dream or enjoyed by ourselves, removed from our fellow human beings."
Indeed.
In some sense we can be considered to be essentially removed from other people, and the solipsist would argue such zealously. No one know's another's thoughts, every perspective is wholly individual, and we all face death alone.
Moreover depending on our choice of free exercise, that absolute freedom could be enjoyed in groups. Though I can't presently reach your nose I may well stop swinging my fist if it gets too close. Even what might seem like a compromise can still be complete freedom if one acts boldly and honestly wields their freedom.
Or this is just an analysis of a neat illusion, maybe even preordained by my subconscious or the mechanistic interaction of materials. Though it doesn't seem to make much difference to me. Words in their abstraction seem to predictably fail as descriptors of our ineffable concrete reality.
...that most voluntarists and other modern freedom-lovers combine their love for freedom with a love for capitalism. And that simply won't work.
Capitalism is free association, free to contract, free to own property,freedom of mobility.
Anything else is controlling behavior by the power hungry sociopaths wishing to control others as they see fit.... i.e (restrictions of freedom)...
...Oh, and the useful idiots that follow and believe such low IQ utopian dogma - The intellectually lazy people who refuse to study, and work it out for for themselves.
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Check out the last post from @hivebuzz:
The freedom with which we are imbued physically is radical.
My freedom to swing my fist doesn't really end at your nose, that's just a societal ideal. No force naturally springs up to interfere.
The universe foists upon us a great and terrible freedom, one that we scarcely dare consider or exercise.
Though we are profoundly limited by the possibilities presented by physics, cultures work to psychically limit the still incredible scope of what heroism or atrocities their members could commit.
Unless of course we have no free will, or everything is deterministic.
But it does my friend, it does; that force would be me :-) And then there'd be a fight and we'd have given up on all the good we could have achieved by joining our forces. And nature actually decided we need our forces joined in order to survive in the face of whatever the universe throws at us.
Which is a good thing; we are social creatures after all. We are as free as however big a society allows us to be; absolute freedom is a pipe-dream or enjoyed by ourselves, removed from our fellow human beings.
The key word being "members", which implies we are indeed part of the greater whole that limits the atrocities at least...
Well, as it looks now, free will is a neat illusion we need to make sense of reality of our place in the universe. But that's a whole other can of worms...
As always, your thoughts are highly appreciated, @a-non-e-moose ! Thanks so much for feeding the soul ;-)
"...that force would be me..."
I take your point. Though it may be a bit of hair splitting over whats 'natural' or not, I'd say that such requires a similar exertion of this somewhat transcendent conception of freedom.
Also decided may be a bit strong when characterizing nature, but I can appreciate the utility of social drives. The great struggle of our innumerable ancestors leaves us well equipped in many regards, though deficient or maladapted in others. I reckon much of our troubles come from the rapid and largely thoughtless changing of our environment, however.
"...absolute freedom is a pipe-dream or enjoyed by ourselves, removed from our fellow human beings."
Indeed.
In some sense we can be considered to be essentially removed from other people, and the solipsist would argue such zealously. No one know's another's thoughts, every perspective is wholly individual, and we all face death alone.
Moreover depending on our choice of free exercise, that absolute freedom could be enjoyed in groups. Though I can't presently reach your nose I may well stop swinging my fist if it gets too close. Even what might seem like a compromise can still be complete freedom if one acts boldly and honestly wields their freedom.
Or this is just an analysis of a neat illusion, maybe even preordained by my subconscious or the mechanistic interaction of materials. Though it doesn't seem to make much difference to me. Words in their abstraction seem to predictably fail as descriptors of our ineffable concrete reality.
Thank you in turn for the provocative deep dive.
...that most voluntarists and other modern freedom-lovers combine their love for freedom with a love for capitalism. And that simply won't work.
Capitalism is free association, free to contract, free to own property,freedom of mobility.
Anything else is controlling behavior by the power hungry sociopaths wishing to control others as they see fit.... i.e (restrictions of freedom)...
...Oh, and the useful idiots that follow and believe such low IQ utopian dogma - The intellectually lazy people who refuse to study, and work it out for for themselves.
Read more, type less (I'm trying to help).