It was my first of ten sessions with a psychotherapist today, and I didn't really know what it was going to be, but it ended up being as what I had guessed at, just sitting around and talking. Apparently at some point, we will define goals for what to get out of the sessions, but the therapist needs to get some background first. I told her before we met in an email that I was an interesting case for her and after today, she booked in the next nine sessions. I am not going to go into the session right now, but it did get me thinking about something I recently heard about.
A suicide epidemic.
Sounds like fun.
I heard about this on a podcast and a reference to a study on "Poplar Grove", a town where between 2000 and 2015, there were nineteen suicides at the high school. The town itself was idyllic, affluent, well funded schools, green spaces and was considered a great place to live. But, there was another side to it, where because of the skew in demographics, there was a lot of pressure on academic and sporting performance, and the culture was very homogenous.
I hadn't really thought about this in terms of suicide before, but in a homogenous high school where everyone is expected to behave in a certain way and aim for similar life goals, there aren't the cliques like there were like when I went to school. My school had nerds, jocks, skaters, stoners, musicians, dancers and subsets between. This meant that no matter what kind of person you were, or what you were into, there was a "place" for you to spend time with similar types. Even multiple places.
I was a social butterfly.
However, I know what it is like to not have a place or people from my time in primary school, and it wasn't an easy life. I made it through, but also, being young might have actually made me more resilient to it, and as it started so early, maybe my resilience developed further. But, not having a place was still hard, and I think that with all of the added pressures of the current social and digital landscape, there are added wrinkles. And then, going into high school in that environment, in a period of life where a lot of personality change happens, it might be even more pronounced for the people who don't fit in.
Suicide is a way to find a peaceful spot.
Diversity in a student population is important, but often what is considered as "diverse", are things that are arbitrary, like skin colour, religion, or economic background. For a high school kid, what is more important for inclusions, are skills and interest areas. This is even more important in what I consider is a hyper-focus on our identity, because if there is no group to connect with that is in some way similar to how we identify, we are likely to feel isolated, and that leads to a lot of mental and emotional dysfunction, like depression.
What got me thinking about this today, is that depression is incredibly common in stroke survivors, and they are at an estimated double the risk of suicide. And, as I told the therapist today, I get it. I think that one of the reasons is that even in "mild" strokes, the affects on the individual can be profound, even if subtle and unnoticeable to others. For me, I feel like a different person in so many ways. Add this to the cognitive and physical losses, and it is pretty severe.
However, I think one of the really hard things is that because the effects can be so fundamental, it means that the identity changes, and therefore, so does the group identity. Couple this with not really being able to explain what is going on to even the people closest, and that feeling of isolation can become very pronounced. Friends have faded away, and I get it, I am a different person. Even my wife doesn't understand who I am now, which is quite unfair on her. This is not the person she said yes to. Even in a group of stroke survivors, there might be more understanding of the experience, but it still affects each quite differently.
I have a lot of issues, some of them are even from the stroke. However, with the work I have been doing on habit development and how identity plays a major role in making a new habit stick, it makes me consider more deeply. We didn't do any goal setting today, but we did talk about what they could be and I have no idea. And I think that one of the reasons I have no idea, is because like a chronically depressed person (apparently I am one according to the tests), I have next to zero motivation, even if I am interested in something. The only reason I do anything at all, is because of obligation and responsibilities.
So how to set valuable and achievable goals?
I guess that will come up more in future sessions, but I am thinking now that I might have to employ peer group dynamics, and find a clique where I fit in. I don't want to hang out with other stroke patients to wallow, but maybe groups of people who are on a similar skill or interest journey as myself, and will hold me accountable.
I don't know where this all leads me or those in my life, but I guess the only option is to keep trying to find the next step and if it leads to a dead end, look for another way. Well, I guess there is another option too. The journey is quite interesting, but also extremely tiring and frustrating, and I think the journey is made harder because I don't even know what I want to move toward, because my brain doesn't process the future like it did. At the moment, I just now what my responsibilities and obligations are, and I try to meet them the best I can.
But, what if I didn't have those?
Taraz
[ Gen1: Hive ]
Suicide is no way. It is an act to make a large number of loved ones unhappy in the life of the one who decides to do so.
Just as in the fatal outcome in an accident or murder, the one who commits it causes great pain to the family, friends of the one who killed him. sometimes one murder or suicide destroys dozens of other lives...
A girl from the neighborhood committed suicide.
Shot herself in the head with her father's Colt, muffled the shot with a pillow, while her younger sister was sleeping in the room next to her.
That unfortunate child first saw her dead sister, and the family fell apart in that tragedy.
Why?
Because some kid refused to be her crush.
I get it.
But you are seeing it from the perspective of those impacted, not the person commiting suicide. If their mind is tormented enough, they will look to stop their suffering.
The next interesting question is, how much suffering can an individual go through to protect the comfort of others?
But I'm not talking about the comfort of the people around the one who killed himself or who was killed.
I'm talking about the lives destroyed due to the departure of the one they love.
a tortured and suffering mind can be healed. conversation, therapy, companionship, acceptance, medication...
only euthanasia (although illegal) makes sense to me when it is clear that there is no cure for a sick body...
but for the soul and mind, there is always a cure. Just don't give up.
I was a teenager who, like anyone who was not accepted in society, had all kinds of thoughts...
But I never thought of taking my own life.
Maybe someday I could kill, to protect my family, but not myself.
For no reason. Not because I love myself, but because I couldn't do something like that to close people and family.
It is clear, we will all leave this world at some point, due to old age, illness, an accident... but not voluntarily.
Again, you are looking from your perspective, not the perspective of the person in that situation. They are looking for peace, and in their view death can offer that.
Again, this is in your view of it, not theirs. It is a moral judgement to say "don't give up" and for them, they might see "not giving up" as finding that peace. I don't think anyone wants to kill themselves, but for some, they don't see any other way out of whatever they are experiencing.
Do you see the issue with this? I get it, but it goes back to the question of "how much suffering should one endure"
How much suffering are you willing someone you love to go through in order for you to feel okay to have them there?
Do you smoke, eat junk food, drink, exercise too little, sit too much... you know, all these kinds of things that impact on longevity. Aren't they voluntary actions? Should you spend your time maximizing your life at the expense of feeling good, so you can spend the most amount of time alive for the people who love you? Isn't not taking care of your health just slow suicide?
Do you see how the collective intuition around these things rarely considers it?
Depression is a very prevalent disease in today's society and is very difficult to treat.
It is difficult to bring back a person who thinks that the only way to peace is death.
As tht said "People in places where the level of wealth is low say, "I haven't enjoyed life yet, I have to live" and don't want to die.", probably makes sense.
The poor hope for the rest of their lives that they will live better someday, while the richer ones quickly realize that they won't, so they quickly surrender to complete depression.
We now have a friend who had a beautiful life, part of it she spent in Sydney, where her son now lives with his family, and she is currently in a psychiatric institution. Severe depression, and my sister, who had a catastrophic hard life (she was fatherless as a child, worked two jobs for years...), but she doesn't give up.
But whether rich or poor, the one who is depressed and thinks about finding peace, can find it in another place than death.
If he does not have the support of his family and environment, he can leave his previous way of life and find peace in nature, by the sea, lake, mountain, forest. He can engage in charity work, to find a purpose in another place, if he does not find it in his current life... To spend the values he has acquired in his life in any place for life, not for death.
One of the potential problems we now have is comparing the conditions someone has to another, as if the people themselves are one to one.
For instance, One person can run up a flight of stairs, so why can't another person in a wheelchair? People go, that is obvious, they are in a wheelchair, their body can't do it - but the brain is also a physical organ and part of the body - what if the brain can't do it?
This is an assumption, isn't it? Maybe it is true, but maybe it is not. But regardless, for the person in the situation that can't see an alternative, it is irrelevant what other options there might be.
For example, you also mentioned euthanasia as an option, but have you ever looked at the cost of it? It is above most people's capabilities.
I mentioned euthanasia as an option in the case of a terminally ill person, towards the end, which would be very painful for the patient.
I never had the need (thank God) to inquire about the price of it, and I had nowhere, since it is not legal in my country.
I believe that there is more of a question of ethics and morality than price.
But yes, someone who has no money, how could he even think of such a thing...
He would die in the most excruciating pain or be drugged with painkillers.
As you wrote, if a person sees no other path than suicide to find his peace, I agree, it is very difficult to divert him from that path.
But such a person, if he shows the presence of depression, should be noticed and talked to.
Do not turn your head.
Because often they want to be noticed, asked, they want company and attention.
This is also the case with this friend of ours, who found attention in the presence of my sister. And my sister will do everything to get her out of depression and not to think of suicide.
But it's still a leap of faith, who knows if suicide will release from the suffering. Maybe that's how a persons suffers start.
This is true, it could be. Or, it could be fade to black and there is nothing else. It could be that there is a god that punishes those who chose to suffer instead of find peace for themselves. Who knows. It is all faith based, nothing is known.
I wrote today in my post about perspective and that you look differently when you step into someone else's shoes.
But again I believe that suicide does not solve anything.
I consider that to be the surrender of someone who does not see that he has a reason to live.
And he is certainly wrong.
Because every new day in life can provide an opportunity, when life will be worth more... Maybe he will not bring value to his own life, but to someone else's, but certainly, if he leaves this world, all opportunities are lost.
Based on what you have shared in the past about how things work where you are living it is likely going to be a bit difficult to find the social groups that you are talking about. I hope you figure something out though.
Possibly. But what I am thinking is that I do it at a more "normal" level, where for example, if I want to be healthier, I find groups to support that. I really was hoping my wife would, but she is not very interested in it. She "wants" health, but isn't really ready to make the changes for it.
My wife and I are kind of the same way. We want to be healthy, but we want to do it privately. We are fine talking about it with people, but actually going to a gym is too much like broadcasting it :) Is there a recreational activity you enjoy doing that they might have a club for over there? Like golf? Pickleball? Something that works well with your limitations?
If you didn't have them, what a shame it would be. I think you have some idea of how much intelligence and talent you have, which means you bring (much) value to the world. So it would be a shame.
But you do have them. You do have those responsibilities and they are, to an extent, self-imposed. After all, how many dads, husbands, brothers don't just bolt for much lighter reasons? Which suggests the world also has value for you.
It's commendable, your honesty. I imagine it's not easy to say these things here or anywhere else, so thank you for saying them. For letting someone see. I hope you keep doing that -maybe those groups would be helpful, indeed. Why not at least see if there's something of value there?
People who kill themselves do so, it seems, because they genuinely believe the lives of their loved ones would be better off. They never are. Never. Which obviously is hard to see when you've got poles in your eyes, so I guess the only thing to do is remind them they're wrong about this (it's enough to lose anyone who really matters to know that hollowness never means better off) and that they can and will get through it. Blatantly obvious that people with giant poles sticking out of their damn eyes should not operate heavy machinery or make big life decisions either way ;)
Maybe. But consider that in the experience of the individual in this case - forced to suffer to benefit others, even though they don't want to live on themselves. Is that fair, or is it cruel?
I don't see myself suiciding, because I am far too stubborn :D
I can understand this position, and perhaps in some circumstances the family would be better off. It is like the "a child needs their father/mother" but that is not actually true, and the child could be far better off without them. Think about all those stories of abusive parents.
The other thing is, that everything is a learning experience and the most is learned in hard times. Kids lose their parents in a war or car crash, what is the difference?
Good. :)
It's an interesting question, for sure, but I would argue a fair outcome can sometimes also be cruel. And also, supposing the individual goes on living for his loved ones, why should it be fair when so little of our love and our relationships (romantic but also familial) is?
I don't know whether it's fair or cruel. Maybe both, but it's also an act of love. He's surviving to spare his loved ones the pain of living through his suicide, which is often tremendous. If you love someone a great deal and your choice is between your suffering and theirs, the choice is obvious. And I know you know all that already.
All the difference. Kids whose parents suicide are gonna spend every damn day asking why mummy or daddy chose to leave them, one in the two people who are supposed to be there and not make that choice made that choice. There's no choice in dying in war or a car crash, so I would say quite a lot of difference, indeed.
Seems there is also a diversity in suicide. People in my country commit suicide due to unemployment and economic crisis in recent years.
For sure. It is about the struggle and whether it is worth to continue struggling for no gain, or just letting it go.
Suicide cases are increasing. It is surprising that suicide cases are so high in places where economic income and education levels are high. As the level of wealth and economic income increases, the bond between you and people weakens a little. This then causes certain psychological problems. Suicide is then questioned. People in places where the level of wealth is low say, "I haven't enjoyed life yet, I have to live" and don't want to die.
I think it is not so surprising, because in those places there is also a lot of disconnection from community.
Or, they have stronger bonds of support with the people around them, which gives them reasons to go on, or obligations to go on.
slightly off topic:
kids these days are different. I remember us running around, being happy most of the times.
It was healthy just being part of a group. I think kids lost this aspect to some degree, plus online means more cyber bullying, things being shared online, people being a***es etc etc
back in a day when I was laying drunk on the street, nobody shared my photos online, today it would be the case
I think part of the change is because kids are getting "therapy" from a very young age from parents, schools and therapists themselves. They are hyper focused on their feelings, not their experiences.
I think you may be right, I havent thought about it in these terms🤔
I once read statistics on suicides in 15 republics of the USSR. And it turned out that in the most developed Baltic republics, the suicide rate is the highest. Probably too little sun - I thought then.
Too little sun might have an impact. A lot of foreigners from the south fall into depression because of a lack of vitamin D - and then there are the social issues with being a foreigner from the south on top of it, without a strong social network.
Interesting prespective, but does it give better choice to the one who commits it, or do the ones around him/her end up in a better position. Certainly that would be a big no. One must make choices that lead to happiness and harmony...
Happiness and harmony of who? Currently the majority of us are working our asses off to bring happiness and harmony to the minority.
For the higher self...
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the book is rather good, where the study of Poplar grove is taken from;
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@danzocal(2/10) tipped @tarazkp