Thanks.Alright @calumam. I have a few minutes; that stuff you said pissed me off for the whole day.
Your words: "I just said it's not a good look."
What's up? I'm baffled. If I go out to eat and there's some dude selling crack on the patio, that's it for me? Now I can't be trusted?
Mention names. Who's shady? I'd like to know. I've spoken to a lot of people here over the years, and they are not shady. So who is it I'm supposed to be avoiding... hmmm?
then in bold and italics just like this he goes on to prop up POB,And to clarify, I see a big long speech from @trostparadox, then goes back to writing normally. In @dwinblood's post suddenly it shifts gears and POB is mentioned; positioned in a way to make it look better than the rest. I think it's only reasonable to assume there's a bit of promotion happening. And that's fine, but I feel creating a rift is unnecessary. Nobody here wants problems to go on forever. And I've seen people use similar tactics. Point at flaws the entire community shares and has to deal with, then say you're better. That sort of promotion leads to fractured markets/segregated echo-chambers. It's not known to create healthy competition. Tribes aren't in direct competition with Hive anyway. @trostparadox I apologize for not explaining myself. I never thought there was some kind of ulterior motive. I just saw what I saw; read what I read. And sometimes we're rushing through these messages, hitting send too soon.
I try not to read too much into individual comments. There were a few assumptions you made that left me scratching my head. Alas, no worries!
I have been pro-Hive from the first time I heard about it. However, my first impressions were, "Wow, onboarding is WAY too difficult" (and, subsequently, my students had the same first impression).
I have shared my enthusiasm about Hive with a LOT of people the past few months. So, far, although several have onboarded, none have truly embraced it.
That has left me thinking, "What's missing?" That has also left me thinking, "What other obstacles might turn folks away?" In that vein, when I observe things that turn me away, I have to ask myself how much might that turn away other people I know.
This concept of downvoting 'over-rewarded' posts is one of those. Bigger than that, though, is the potential weaponization of 'free downvotes'. I have observed downvotes being weaponized in a small way. I have spoken a fair bit with 'veterans' who've been around a long time and I understand some of the history (but by no means all, or even close to it). I view the current protocol as having provided a much-needed solution to a serious problem. However, I also view it as desperately needing to be replaced by a more creative solution. I have thrown around the term 'flaw' when referring to the current protocol and, in retrospect, I used that term far too flippantly.
I am convinced that the current protocol was needed. I am also convinced that a new protocol is needed before Hive can progress to the next level -- so convinced that I am focusing most of my 'work' here on figuring out that solution. I am not here to gripe about problems. I am here to propose solutions. I am not here to create divisions and factions. And, although I am convinced that a Layer 1 change will eventually be needed, I am equally convinced that Layer 2 experiments are the way to sort out what might and might not work.
I have been following @dwinblood and appreciating his writing and thought processes for quite some time, and dialoguing with him a fair bit. He is probably the wisest Hivian I've met thus far. I believe we can all benefit a great deal from listening to him and dialoguing with him. He identified what he felt was the 'flawed nature' of the downvote protocols years ago, and openly complained about them, and engaged in constructive dialogue with those in positions of power. In the end, he concluded that the current protocol may simply be 'the best we can do'. Even so, he has demonstrated that he is willing to step into the fray and call out abusive behavior when he sees it.
One huge benefit of this current dialogue, imho, has been some of the clarity @dwinblood has brought to the conversation, especially with respect to 'over-rewarded' posts. As he has aptly pointed out, downvoting a post to $0 (for a post that is not plagiarism or some other form of fraud) is not really about the post being 'over-rewarded' -- such actions are abusive, not just to the author, but to all those who upvoted that author. This is one of the things we are actively working on within the PoB tribe -- can we establish a community-driven objective method for adjudicating whether a post is indeed 'over-rewarded'?
In closing, I don't see the folks here as either 'evil' or 'good'. I focus on ideas and arguments; and, I am a systems-level thinker. I try to evaluate things at the system-level, to see if the system can withstand various forces, pressures, attacks from without and within, etc. As such, I don't mean for any of my criticisms to be applied personally and I rarely take criticisms personally.
better, in so many words. I could even say I detect a hint of product placement.Thanks for responding, @trostparadox. I'll tell you right now, when it comes to communication, sometimes I fail miserably/flawed and since fewer questions are asked these days that stuff is left hanging there. What I saw in the form of promotion is quite common but often overlooked by the consumer. This isn't the first post that talks about downvotes AND recommends someone go someplace else,
These things do not offend me. But often when it comes up, the discussion leads nowhere. The approach is far too polarizing in several of the instances I've come across so far. No progress is made. No progress is addressed. Rinse and repeat. If you want change, we must come together. I don't subscribe to the 'good vs evil' model in politics either but several do, applying it to everything, making it impossible to talk and accomplish things. I've already witnessed groups branch off from this place, burning bridges along the way, to form the promised land free of downvotes, and they run it into the ground every time.
I suggest bringing your students along, not shying away from these challenges we all face. We're on the cusp of something new here so experiencing certain challenges is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Those going around saying it has failed and telling everyone to run are not the type of people who can change the world. If you see potential, keep looking at it. If you trip, move that log aside, so the next one doesn't trip over it. Stubbing your toes all day requires a special kind of patience though...
The over-rewarded concept is a tough one especially for the legitimate acts here that create content for an audience and not tokens. Here's something I published over a year ago:
https://peakd.com/opinion/@nonameslefttouse/not-everything-needs-to-be-a-spectacle-turning-a-negative-into-a-positive
Yes, after further introspection, I don't think I should let my concerns about this topic get in the way of my original plans to require a semester project tied to Hive.
Thanks for the dialogue!
I agree. There is learning potential in all of this that is going on as well.
Yeah, let's just stick with that above, and >That was wasted.
I try not to publish comments later on at night and this string has further reinforced the need to be cautious of that. Some clarity would have helped the situation.
I was also in a rush to head out the door and suddenly, your message. I won't be holding a grudge. But if you want to see some really awesome people, just flip through my comment section. You'll see why it was so shocking for me to hear about the shady people. I didn't even know how to process that. These folks are great!
And I had already been talking about this particular trend in 'advertising' I'm seeing prior to viewing this post. Nothing new. Usually a bad idea.
There's obviously some serious issues that need addressing but folks have to work together finding solutions. Even people who hate each other can have common goals. Gotta eliminate the BS and get down to brass tacks...
Anyway. See you around.
I definitely will, it seems like you have a solid head on your shoulders and that usually brings good company.
Couldn't agree more. Not always easy when there is a mixture of motivations present.
Cheers, speak to you another time.