OK ... so, I was pulled in only this January because Xeldal started voting up and you started voting down, and I appreciate the context of your side of the issue. Thank you for sharing. I come down hard sometimes, but I try to be fair, and in fairness, I see what you have been trying to do.
Yet you do realize, as a highly intelligent person, that as long as you are DVing people who CANNOT know this history, you are going to be backed into the bad guy corner, right? I'm not going to stop writing. @xeldal is apparently not going to stop upvoting. In a bear market, those upvotes are especially welcome to MANY, and AGAIN, everyone Xeldal upvotes is not spam. I'm not. You know that. But I get it; you are doing your best to keep someone you feel is supporting spam from growing. Yet in expanding these DVs outside ACTUAL spam, you have made the decision to introduce yourself, NOW, to dozens if not hundreds of people as one who takes potential resources away from good content in a time in which people truly need all they can earn. I care enough to read and understand better, but I also have the luxury of sitting in a home that's paid for, with plenty of basic resources at hand.
@xeldal, I have read your posts from way back -- you also are a highly intelligent person. You also have an opportunity here to stop this madness that is hurting people that are not spamming and should not be involved in this matter. Just how much is it worth it to you to keep your part of this going while innocent Hivers are getting hurt in the middle? I don't know your side of the story as well, but I'm sure you have one and it is rich with history -- but for TODAY, I can think of something you can do today to help everyone. I would think withholding the $42 DV you and @enki tend to drop on Mark would help a lot to end this whale war. I would think you upvoting whatever you want and not DVing everything Mark upvotes would help a lot. Both of you can be heroes for Hive today -- NOW -- or you can both keep up the madness and hurt Hive's short-term and long-term chances. What's that $42 DV worth to you and Enki today, Xeldal?
GENTLEMEN, whales, and global countrymen all -- PLEASE make peace, so that Hive can flourish and not be crippled. Everyone has a side to the story. Everyone is responsible for what they do from here on out. If tomorrow is the same as today, you will have chosen that. If tomorrow is better than today, and Hive's innocent content creators can breathe easier again, you will have chosen that. It is entirely up to you.
You fail to factor in the thousands of downvotes a week I prevented and the thousands of upvotes a week I no longer give when I stopped voting on authors. I can assure you it accounts for way more than the small percentage I have downvoted.
I'll take your word for it, Mark. I'm not disputing your version of longer-term events because I don't have evidence either way ... but the other Hivers you are DVing don't know either. They know what is happening to them NOW. I'm not spam and you and Freeborn rolled through again today on me -- even if it is just to take off Xeldal's votes, y'all treat me like I'm blacklisted here, and it has a psychological ill effect. You just think I should take it on the chin, and I can while even caring enough to try to understand your side of the story ... but the point here is, the New Hivers that come in here need not be burdened with having to manage years of context to understand why they should be discouraged, coming in the door. Hivers creating good content shouldn't either, Mark.
Remember WHO YOU ARE, Mark. I read your whole post. Look back at all the good you have done. Is this fight with Xeldal the absolute best thing you can do, going forward? Does it even fit with your total reputation? THINK, Mark -- think! If I BELIEVE YOUR POST, you're better than being reduced to just a whale war ... why would you allow your broadest legacy to be DVs in a bear market when you KNOW that people have been surviving because of Hive starting in the pandemic? Xeldal is powering DOWN; he's not going to get significantly bigger even if you let his non-spam upvotes go. I'm not saying "don't fight against abuse." I'm not saying, "Just take the abuse because nobody cares anyway." Despite the fact of our unfortunate introduction, I do give a darn about you because you are a human being in a tough, tough spot. I'm saying, the way out is up to you.
Mathematically, you know you might end this positively by voting UP what you agree is the good stuff Xeldal votes, right? That stops you from DVing each other, and suddenly, good content makes both of you and everyone else so profitable that spam becomes less attractive for everyone. EVERYBODY DOING GOOD GROWS, and spammers get less. You know with your skills, you can inform people that the best thing to do with real spam is to MUTE IT, the most underused ability on the chain -- certain abusers are getting muted out by whole communities, and that may be the wave of the future!
There has GOT TO BE A WAY, Mark. You are highly intelligent, highly skilled. You still have options and choices, NOW, to fix this thing. You do not have to be trapped ... but that which is your choice is YOUR CHOICE, not mine, not Xeldal's. You make your reputation, DAILY, with people who have not been here as long and cannot know all that has happened. You can stop being called the bad guy TODAY, and from here forward. It is UP TO YOU.
Destroying an innocent person's income is in no way shape or form acceptable. Collateral damage is abuse.
And it shouldnt ever happen on Hive.
The dvwar is literally the pot meeting the kettle. Why can you not see that?
I'm simply removing one person's vote, nothing more. In fact by me not voting authors, I have removed way way more downvotes and "lost income". If I vote you right now, you will get downvoted. I also used to upvote you, but now I don't due to that fact.
But do we know this is STILL true, @themarkymark? I have suggested how you test it -- it could be that @xeldal is willing to let this go.
Find a non-spam author Xeldal upvoted -- upvote that author. See if he removes his vote because you are there. Maybe start with some New Hivers he is upvoting. Make their day.
Find a good content creator. Upvote that person before @xeldal gets there and see if he DVs. In fact, I'll volunteer so no one else who doesn't know what is going on has to go through the foolery.
What you have gone through, you have gone through -- it is a LOT, Mark -- but I keep telling you that you have the power to change things yourself. You are wrecking your reputation on Hive because the average person on Hive does not give two dead flies about what happened three years back when they see lost potential earnings and your name on that loss, and will NEVER READ THROUGH THIS POST. Those few who do will get your side of the story ... and that of those voices for peace who addressed both you and Xeldal in an attempt to end this. If you want to keep doubling down so you can be right in your own eyes, that's a choice ... but only one. Others have been highlighted, so, if content creators leave or never get started here because of your choice from TODAY, we will know your why, but also that other ways were possible that could have built a better future for Hive. I am attempting to reason with you, but I am also highlighting for the chain, for both you and @xeldal, that if Hive fails and reasons are sought, that there are people who chose to be reasonable and people who chose to follow their personal agendas, rolling over people who did not deserve to be pulled into this when other options were available. You can do nothing about where Xeldal chooses to write his name in that record. You only can choose where you write yours.
@themarkymark
This is one of the detrimental effects of DV wars that saddens me the most. Because DVs cost the DV'er nothing, yet they cost good-faith curators, sometimes considerably, it drives good-faith curators away from certain accounts, authors, topics, or away from manual curation altogether, as in your case.
Hive was a much better place when you felt free to distribute your upvotes in what you saw as a meaningful way. The value of Hive has diminished as a result of this conflict between you and newsflash, then xeldal. I'm not talking about market cap value. I am talking about the informative-content and decentralized-governance value (via manual curation) that you personally used to willingly provide to the chain (which, quite honestly, was in no way 'worth your time' in monetary terms).
Prior to this DV war, you were consistently adding value to the chain. I have no doubt that you could have been making more (in monetary terms) by just focusing on coding and projects, rather than writing and curating. That's why this is so sad and frustrating to me. Even when you were reaping author and curator rewards, you were 'losing' money, in terms of opportunity costs. But you were willing to do it and the entire chain was better off because of that. With you walking away, your continued efforts at growing the pie are being taken away from all of us.
This is by design. Rewards are supposed to go according to stakeholder consensus. If there is disagreement, then rewards go somewhere else. In cases where the disagreement is consistent, it's a waste of your vote power to continue voting there, because it isn't going to be part of a consensus and get paid. You need to vote elsewhere if you don't want to lose out.
If people could just send rewards unilaterally, without regard to consensus or disagreement, it would just be tipping (which people can also do, without concern over downvotes).
Thanks for the engagement. I truly appreciate it!
Yes, I am all for systems that facilitate consensus and that are at their core community-driven. With that said, when a single whale account can repeatedly nuke posts to zero, just because they personally disagree with the content or dislike the author or with one or more of the curators, it is not 'consensus'; it is merely the weaponization of stake. If the community genuinely prefers a Hobbesian state of nature for the blockchain, then so be it. (And if such is the case and if it becomes clear to me that such is the case, then I will likely do as marky and 'walk away' from day-to-day involvement.)
However, if one prefers a Lockean state of nature, as do I, then some changes are warranted.
As a relative newcomer to Hive (I've been here for a little over two years), I see the ease with which DVs can currently be weaponized as a serious drawback to the future growth and health of the ecosystem.
Greater transparency can and will improve the situation, without the need for any protocol changes, and I am actively working with some well-respected members of this community to accomplish those ends. However, we should also seriously consider potential protocol changes. I will be presenting some ideas in that regard, and hopefully something meaningful will come from the ensuing dialogue.
I get the fact that adequate tools are needed to combat spam and fraud and the like. I also appreciate (and agree with) the importance of consensus with respect to reward pool distribution. My thoughts and concerns (regarding the current system) are threefold:
First, I genuinely fear that the ease with which DVs can be weaponized can and will blow up in our faces if and when Hive gains some of the widespread recognition it deserves.
Second, if under the current anti-abuse system we are unable to maintain the active participation of valuable longstanding contributors, like marky, that should be a wakeup call, imho. (Even if marky is okay with 'walking away', I am not okay with that. Not when I believe we can do better. Not when I believe we can achieve a both/and rather than either/or solution, if we put our minds to it.)
Third, although I am convinced that 'free DVs' have their place and likely 'saved the day' when malicious actions by a few were threatening the continued viability (and thus the very existence) of the blockchain, it is an extremely blunt instrument as currently configured. In light of my first two concerns, I refuse to simply shrug my shoulders and move on. I have been and will remain diligent to explore new ideas, to dialogue and brainstorm with any who care to join me. I have no doubt we can hone the tools at our disposal to provide much more precision with much less collateral damage.
We'll have to agree to disagree. A single whale CAN nuke SOME posts. But they have to prioritize which posts, and that's consensus. The ones they're nuking do not have consensus. The others that necessarily survive with successful payouts are consensus.
Nothing is going to blow up in our face if Hive gains widespread adoption because there will be too many posts and too much engagement for any peculiar preferences of an individual to make a difference. We pay a lot of attention to it now because the whole thing is small so every controversial outcome becomes a big deal.
On every platform on the internet, ever, there a variety of bad outcomes, but they're usually small and not at such a systemic level that it destroys the platform. People's accounts get hacked, get locked for mistaken reasons (and sometimes never unlocked, etc.). There is also blatant copyright infringement (someone posted an entire Disney movie on Twitter in HD the other day and it stayed there for a few days before being removed), impersonation, aggressive disinformation campaigns, etc. Perfection isn't achievable. Same here.
Erm... do you mind to paraphrase that a bit, mate? Please, define WTF is "community" consensus under the premise that you are describing.
If someone chooses to downvote something, it gets less rewards. The more stake downvoting it (whether from one person or multiple), the more stake disagreement there is, and the less rewards it gets.
At the same time, OTHER posts which do NOT get downvotes (or get relatively little stake downvoting, even if some), get more rewards. Those are the ones where the community has broadly agreed to direct rewards.
You can think of a downvote as a sort of veto on payouts. Anyone (or multiple people) can stand up and object, essentially veto that payout, though strength of that veto depends on stake.
Consensus can also counter those downvotes if they so chose to. In the end, the votes are a community effort. The real problem is most people won't be bothered to, or even care.
That's just going to be human nature at work and a you problem not a me problem issue. You also have the fact a third party won't fully understand what is going on and won't be easy to make an educated decision on which side to support. They will have to further invest time, which many won't want to.