Let the hatchet job begin!
At this point it's totally unacceptable how not only the internal market works, but also every market on HiveEngine. I assume dLUX and the SPEAK network aren't going to improve much on these issues considering what I'm seeing.
Consolidate the order books ledger.
This is something that all the frontends can do.
Here's the UI from Tribaldex.com (HiveEngine Frontend)
This the Trade History, and it's completely worthless and human-unreadable. The problem with it is that a single taker order can appear as literally DOZENS of transactions. If a single taker order liquidates dozens of maker orders, they all show up in this log as separate transactions. This is obviously a really fucking stupid way to display the information. Like seriously, why? @elevator09 gets 9 transactions with the same timestamp for a single taker order? Seriously, no... stop it. So bad.
One taker order: one transaction.
Duh. Instead of listing every maker order that the taker order liquidated, you just list the average price of the taker order and consolidate 95% of the transactions on the order history. So so so so so obviously. Displaying the information in the current form is fucking ridiculous on so many levels. I seriously can't believe we've been making these rookie mistakes for literally years and no one even talks about it. Everyone is more concerned with "wen moon" than actually grinding out the infrastructure that might actually get us there one day.
But that's not even close to the worst problem.
The internal market doesn't even display trade history.
Which is arguably even lamer than HiveEngine's bonehead iteration, but it does conserve a good amount of bandwidth considering it's information that most users don't need.
Feast your eyes boys!
The shittiest UI ever that hasn't changed since I joined Steem in 2017. LOL fucking embarrassing. And we wonder why we don't get taken seriously. Silly.
The biggest insult of the internal market (and Hive in general) is that it always assumes that 1 HBD = 1 USD
- HIVE/HBD is an orderbook of Hive bids/asks being priced in HBD.
- Why are we using a dollar sign?
- HBD is not USD.
- Stop pretending that HBD is USD.
- It's fucking stupid and confusing.
If Hive is listed as 50 cents on the internal market, is it worth 50 cents?
The UI says that this is the case. 1 HBD OBVIOUSLY = 1 USD so on the internal market if you can buy Hive for 0.5 you are buying Hive for 50 cents a coin. Oh but wait, it's exactly the opposite of that and is fully dependent on the current value of HBD.
This requires further explanation.
Because it confuses me on a daily basis. Seriously just can't get over how bad this UX is. If Hive costs 50 'cents' on the internal market, but you can buy it for 51 cents on an external market, is the internal market a better deal? Not if HBD has depegged lower than $1, which is more common than not.
Having a hard time even explaining this problem.
Liquidity on the internal market is so bad and embarrassing (even with the stabilizer) that the price displayed is always wrong. The real price of Hive is determined by centralized exchanges (because that's where the liquidity is). When looking at the internal market, the displayed "dollar value" of Hive is actually an inverse representation of how badly HBD has broken the peg. This is what makes it so stupidly nonsensically confusing.
If Hive is listed at $0.50 on the internal market but is selling for $0.52 on Binance, then the price of Hive is 52 cents. However, because Hive can be bought for 50 'cents' on the internal market, that actually means that HBD has broken the peg to the upside because more Hive can be bought for less HBD. In this case a 50 cent Hive price on the internal market actually just means that HBD is valued at $1.04. Yeah, not confusing and stupid at all.
However, if Hive is listed at $0.50 on the internal market but is selling for $0.48 on Binance (the most likely case, and gets even more confusing when Tether breaks its own peg) this means that HBD is actually worth $0.96.
In both cases, Hive was listed as being worth 50 cents, and in both cases that displayed price had nothing to do with the value of Hive, but rather the value of HBD, and the information has to be reverse interpreted by the user looking at an outside exchange to arrive at the correct conclusion.
Making users do mental gymnastics just to use the internal market is really stupid, and I shouldn't have to explain why, but I will anyway.
The fucked up thing is that the Hive network ALREADY KNOWS how much both Hive and HBD are worth without looking at the orderbook on the internal market. It's embarrassing that our frontend doesn't employ this information to make it less confusing.
- This is accomplished by witnesses acting as oracles and providing a price feed for Hive on exchanges. Does the internal market use the price feed from the oracles to provide this desperately needed information to the internal market frontend? No, of course it doesn't.
So what should we change?
First of all, stop using the dollar sign on the internal market. HBD is not dollars, it's HBD. The only time we should use a dollar sign on the internal market is by estimating the current value of HBD, and perhaps the witness price feed for Hive which this is based on.
We also need to understand what the internal market is actually used for. The debt ratio of HIVE/HBD is less than 5%, and the haircut currently stands at 10%. The internal market doesn't exist to sell Hive, it exists to buy Hive, with HBD. Thus, the value of HBD is far more important than the value of Hive when making this decision (especially because the value of HBD is inferred by estimating the value of Hive). When HBD is valued over $1, in theory more people should want to sell. When HBD is valued under $1, they might want to buy HBD, but they definitely don't want to sell and may consider conversions instead.
Calculating the value of HBD.
The only way to know the value of an asset is to track how much people are buying or selling it for on exchanges. Unfortunately, HBD doesn't really exist on exchanges at this point. It never had enough liquidity on Bittrex, and now liquidity is zero because Bittrex and Hive are no longer friends.
The only other place HBD is listed is Upbit, and the regulations on this South Korean exchange are very strict and most of us to not have access because we don't live in South Korea. On sites like CMC and CoinGecko the price of HBD is constantly misrepresented as under-pegged, even though the actual value of HBD on the internal market has been doing quite well thanks to Smooth's stabilizer.
This is also another reason why @khaleelkazi doesn't get nearly enough credit for creating the pHBD/USDC LP on Polygon and allocating free yield to an HBD derivative at zero cost to the Hive ecosystem. If we can move this LP to Curve under the stable-coin pairing we can x10 the liquidity near the peg using the same amount of value inside the pool. That will be a huge development going forward, as pHBD will be the ultimate way to actually get on-chain HBD through the unwrapping process.
Calculating the value of HBD.
Sidetracked AGAIN!
So how do we calculate the value of HBD? Again, unfortunately, the only place that HBD even exists is on-chain using the internal market. We really need to work on outsourcing our debt and increasing the demand to actually hold it. This is of course a terrible time to say so, but LUNA went x100 in a year because of UST. HBD could easily do the same for Hive, without the risk of crashing to zero in an instant.
Thus, the only way to calculate the value of HBD is to use the witness oracle price feed for Hive and reverse engineer the value.
The red highlighted section is the ultimate problem with the internal market.
We need to stop tracking the price of Hive. We already know the price of Hive. Bittrex tells us. Binance tells us. Upbit tells us... MEXC, HUOBI, etc etc. There are no shortage of Hive markets out there (even if a coinbase listing would be epic). Most importantly, the witnesses themselves interpret these external APIs and give their best guess on the price feed as to what Hive's current value is:
https://peakd.com/me/witnesses
It's actually impressive that every witness has a different price feed. That means no single node is calculating this number in exactly the same way, which makes the whole system more robust and accurate. Given this snapshot, we see that the mean average of Hive is very close to 47 cents. This is how we estimate the value of HBD.
Instead of showing the BID and ASK price of HIVE within the context of HBD as if HBD is automatically perfectly pegged, what we should really be doing is estimating the USD value of HBD. That is what users really want to know when buying or selling it. The value of Hive is irrelevant and determined by (currently centralized) exchanges.
How is this done?
Let's assume the mean price feed for Hive was telling us Hive was worth 46 cents externally. We can see that there is a bid for Hive at 0.478805 HBD and an ask of $0.479430. Rather than making the claim that Hive is worth 48.9 cents we should instead reverse this to say that HBD is worth $0.96. Conversely, if the witness feed was telling us Hive was worth 50 cents, the internal market should list HBD as worth $1.02.
This is a much better UI and a much better UX because users will actually know if it is smart to use the internal market or not. This also has the synergistic side-effect that further stabilizes the price of HBD because users are selling high and buying low by design.
Speaking of stabilizing HBD.
The orders themselves should be constructed in a way that allows users to buy and sell HBD in this exact way instead of being based on trading Hive via Hive prices. Without the use of a bot, it is impossible to automatically sell HBD at $1.02 and buy at $0.98. That's a big problem. Any user on Hive should be able to trade based on the depegging of HBD and not on the price of Hive.
Trading based on HBD value.
I imagine this would take a hardfork and require permission and implementation by the top 20 witnesses. The way in which the price of Hive is calculated from the price feed is also a potential attack vector that requires further game-theory.
LUCKILY:
Anyone can create an internal market.
And anyone can create a bot that acts as a custodian for others.
If I recall correctly, Blocktrades is the entity hosting https://wallet.hive.blog/market out of necessity in the wake of the hostile takeover. But what is the internal market? It is simply a frontend display based on information that literally EVERY HIVE NODE has direct access to. All of this info is public and open source. Any dev on Hive could create a reasonable front end for the internal market instead of this hammered dogshit we have access to today... but nobody does it. Why?
There's a very good reason why.
There's no money in it for the dev that builds it (making it a good project for the @hive.fund). That's what it usually comes down to it when it comes to building infrastructure or generic value to a community (like roads or healthcare). No one wants to be the one to build it, but everyone wants to be the one to profit from the value created from the communal infrastructure. Consider this an extension of the tragedy of the commons.
Conclusion
This whole thing is just a tiny example of how crypto infrastructure simply isn't there or exists in a very haphazard user-unfriendly form. That's just the name of the game. Crypto is still in its infancy.
Still, it wouldn't take a whole lot of effort to clean this stuff up. At the end of the day we need to be thinking about strategies to train more devs and clean up the documentation and tutorials so they are much easier to navigate. Paying people to learn wouldn't hurt either, but that's more of an end-game play that we probably don't have time to worry about right now.
Hive is making some really great fundamental developments right now even though the market has been thrashed and we are on the brink of recession. Bear markets are for building. We aren't going to get the kind of stability we need until we have the infrastructure to operate independently of the current system. It's a long road filled with blood, sweat and tears, but I'm here for it. Are you?
I approve this message :)
The internal market ui is shit....till recently hive.blog was the only one that has this UI, and a few months back ecency implemented it as well but its almost as bad as the hive wallet .... I asked the guys from Peakd if they can do something as well
Our attempt were merely to replicate functionality. Improvements will follow in next iterations! 😉
Great to hear that ... appreciate the first step and being first to provide a second option for the internal market
@peakd to the rescue please ;)
OK... noted!
FYI I have my own attempt at an internal market ui, but it does suffer from some of the same problems you mention here. I'll see what I can do to improve it :)
https://hive.ausbit.dev/market - just the market
https://hive.ausbit.dev/markets - added tradingview for external exchanges
Good work but I miss transparency on the internal market. No insight into the orderbooks and no user specific trade history. I want to know when I am bidding against bots and how they behave, otherwise I cannot develop my own trade strategies. And before I lose money, I'd rather not trade at all. Hth.
nice site
good initiative!
Could I get your help with something for my Lightning Hive bridge? I want to come up with a better way of getting a price for HBD than relying on Coingeko which I really don't trust.
You don't and you shouldn't! using pHBD wouldn't be bad, but the real way is....
average spread prices on internal market and divide it into price feed price of Hive.
(price feed HIVE)/[(internal market buy price + internal market sell price)/2]
Then please open this calc on an api so everyone can use it! I bet a few front ends would even throw a few bucks in for compute.
Is there a simple way to get the price feed average from the top witnesses? Guess I need to dig around in the api.
I must clean this part of my code up.
There is an api database_api.get_current_price_feed but have in mind that the price feed is not reported in real-time, so you cannot rely on it.
google only led me to tools that witnesses can use to manage their price feeds, but this must be being averaged internally for the conversion mechanics...
going to have to dig into the docs, I might have some time this week to lend a hand.
Interesting reading, thanks!
I'm still pretty new with Hive and it has been a bit confusing...It was just yesterday I accidentally found the internal market from the dropdown menu. Before that I've been using Tribaldex and few days ago I discovered BeeSwap also.
I've also always hated that when an order is cut parts, I remember Kucoin doing that.
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Extremely worried about the " because Bittrex and Hive are no longer friends " thing.
We clearly need more venues to display HBD/Hive. As we have Hive on Binance (which is huge, imho) , what does it takes to be listed on, let's say, Kucoin?
What does it take to get HBD listed on Binance and Kucoin?
I mean, is not like trying to play in the big leagues (Gemini, Coinbase, Kraken, Huobi)...
It is a matter of volume? Are we still SO tiny?
Thx in advance to any answer
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It's almost certainly a demand issue.
All exchanges want more money.
More volume/demand for a token, more money for listing it and keeping it up to date.
In many cases this is an chicken/egg scenario where we need to listings to get the volume but we need the volume to get the listings. Other than that we just have to continue building demands through the dapps getting built like splinterlands.
Great post! Thank you.
" At the end of the day we need to be thinking about strategies to train more devs and clean up the documentation and tutorials so they are much easier to navigate. "
I agree 200%
Wow, and I read that from the first word to the last.
I can only acknowledge what you are saying, the user experience on the internal market is… well weird. I didn’t get it before and I start to get it now after reading this.
Fact is that @khaleelkazi has brought fire again in the ecosystem and let’s hope that others (witnesses?) get it and follow the example and make things simpler for the users.
This is confusingly awesome. I had no idea really but you are exactly right. I lose a lot of pennies not knowing this stuff.
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Your pinpointing some key issue here. Very nicely done! I’m often wondering too how there can be so much development on the hive blockchain, yet these UIs look like they cam from the stone age…
Great you pointed it out. Let’s see if this gets some attention!
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This is what exactly I noticed that day when I tried converting my HBD to Hive. I was searching for history and I couldn't find it.
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Yeah it should exist but it shouldn't be displayed by default.
A user should have to click it to get the information.
This way less bandwidth is used, as most users will not click the button.
Do you have insight as to how we can view historical data for any token here? Not just for the last 60 days or the last 60 transactions, but for various time periods including MAX? I realize this would be a "nice to have" feature, but it would help us make better trades at the Hive DEXs before we can apply those skills to the outside world.
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Yes, I know I can't fantom it but sometimes I wonder how awesome your brain works... This is so eye opening, who would have thought about this whole thing about the internal market?
I figured! Thanks to you, I guess some work needs to be done about that.
Too bad, but the good thing right now is that you are talking about it now... We proceed from here 😅
Will I be spanked if I say I wasn't pretending but actually thought it was USD 😂 Well, I've known better now. We should stop seeing HBD as USD.
I didn't know about this before, how can one do that?
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I'd never threaten you with a good time.
This requires access to a Hive node that knows the current state of the internal market (how many unfilled limit orders their are). It also requires access to the price feed provided by the witnesses. The bot would then take this information and post orders to buy and sell Hive at certain price points based on the value of HBD, and have to remove and repost those orders in real time as the value of Hive changes.
For example if we want to sell HBD at $1.02, the bot would have to place an order to buy Hive at "$0.50", but if the external value of Hive starts to move up/down this order needs to be quickly canceled and changed to a different value as the prices slosh around. This kind of thing can't be done manually by a person in the current state.
In order for this bot to act as custodian for others, it would have to have a lot of trust within the community. Say if I was running the bot you'd have to send money directly to my account and simply trust that I manage the money correctly and you get your money back in the end. It's not a great long term solution but these things need to be tested in the field in a centralized way before becoming decentralized later.
At the end of the day making these things takes a lot of work and understanding of how the Hive API and the entire ecosystem operates. Saying that "anyone can do it" is perhaps an overzealous statement. It's more accurate to say that no one is gatekeeping this function or regulating what can and can't be done on a technical level.
I get it sir, I appreciate the breakdown you gave here. I guess I don't need to create such now, the process is kinda long and requires more than I had imagined 😅
Whenever tackling a large project like this, I find it useful to identify everything that will not make it into the final product (which for our purposes we can just say is 5-10 years from now). I can then make a list of those items, sort by lowest hanging fruits, and start knocking them off the list one by one.
The internal market UI would certainly be on that list among other things like OBI, internal AMM, etc.
I think there are many small, but significant projects, that many developers could address and then there are other projects that only a few can address (e.g. core developers).
At the moment, the DAO is setup where developers have to “guess” at the issues that the community finds important, write a proposal, and then try to get funding.
I would like to propose a system where the community can propose and vote on ideas that are important to us (e.g. internal AMM). There wouldn’t be any funds associated with this system. It would just be a way for developers to see what issues the community would like addressed so they can write proposals if they have the skill set.
My guess is there will be many issues that developers didn’t realize the community has been asking for. If there is high interest in a specific topic (e.g. internal market UI), this list might even spawn multiple DAO proposals that the community can choose from.
I have a strong feeling they want those frontends or DApps to be developed using HIVE HAF, because it opens the door for a wide range of less specialized developers pool. So HAF will come with the next Front-End, which should then be the kick-off for these updates/upgrades.
Fuck I am feeling so dumb today. I literally read this three times and it is just going over my head.
Could be the beers I had last night or I am not smart enough to gel the information. I have to say the improvements are good.
Just today?
Hahaha smart arse.
How are you man. Post something dangit. Need to consume some good shit.
Saw you there with your self deprecating humor, know you're always a good sport in the banter department, so couldn't resist.
Doing well enough man thanks for asking. Doubt I'll be posting any time soon though. I'd like to, and often. Certainly miss entertaining you folks.
Ok... fine I will just sit in my dark corner sipping my cheap wine. I ain't complaining though cos I still have a full carton in the backroom with my spare black couch...
Glad you are doing good, just wondering when I will get to read something again... ETA? EPA? STI? ESP?
LOL
Fucken I even crack myself up. Look after yourself you awesome cunt.
Again I will wait.
what an impressively spot on post. I actually think that this concept holds hive back. when users interact with applications on other chains...they're still confusing as hell, but they make them look pretty at least.
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I agree that a very accurate picture should be displayed on the market, a person should not turn to other sources, or go to other sites, in order to be able to make an accurate calculation of debit with credit. Also, it would be nice if in the hive engine the pagination would be at the top, as at the bottom, when there are a lot of tokens, it is very inconvenient to flip through the pages, you have to do a long scroll. And, when reloading the page, it always throws a wallet on the first page, you have to spend linear time, which is very small.
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The internal market really is shit. Needs a major overhaul, devs please read this.
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Nice post.
Isn't it?
So nice.
I agree, it just seems like common sense to make these small changes.
Less movies, more common sense changes,
Keep fighting the good fight mate!
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I agree that the interface is outdated and a lot can be imrpoved. However, while anyone can make an internal market, doesn't it all use the same API or centralized service to decide what is bought or sold?
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The same API is provided by multiple witnesses in a decentralized way.
yes please!
@tipu curate
Upvoted 👌 (Mana: 17/37) Liquid rewards.
Our best hope for a solution is the Peakd team. I personally feel they have done a splendid job with their front-end, so I don't see why they couldn't create a halfway decent interface for the home market.
I think any alternatives to the ones we already have could be much better, lol.
I've had issues with this Hive market from Day 1.
Sometimes, it's responsive.. Other times, it's not.
Like you said, transaction history isn't displayed as well. 🤦♀️🤦♀️
I commend you for letting this out here. Even without technical knowledge, I find the internal exchanges off. I was hoping somebody would give it a lift then it would be very awesome.
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I have no clue about developing frontends but I am totally in to vote for a proposal. I totally agree with you that the user experience needs to be enhanced a great deal in order to be able to onboard "normies".
Anyone I bring to hive is completely overwhelmed by all the stuff around this blockchain.
Lets hope your words find some listening ears.
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If you can refer to the last column of the table, it's the selling price. Actually, @leomarker placed 9 orders with different selling prices, so @elevator09 has no choice but to buy 9 times, and the frontend-Tribaldex need to show 9 rows. It will happen like this in any DEXs, in my opinion.
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I could swear it used to. Was it removed?
It doesn't really. Witness feeds are an hourly average. Witnesses don't update their feeds in real time as the price changes every second (or more often) on exchanges. You can't use this to compute a real time price of HIVE or HBD. That information doesn't exist on the chain.
Dollar signs are used for many different dollars around the world. It doesn't imply USD. Nothing about the internal market involves USD, it is purely trading beween HIVE and HBD. Still, it would be okay to stop using the $ and be more clear with explicit HBD (if a bit less space efficient). Either way seems fine to me.
I asked this already, bit if you can add some info as well?
Is it possible to provide the coin aggregators like coingecko or CMC with data for the price and the volume for HBD on the internal market?
Someone needs to build an API that provides exactly the data they need (I'm not 100% sure what that is) and then host it, or add it to the hive code so the standard API servers provide it. And then work with coingecko/CMC (starting with a support ticket, I think) to get them to support it.
Hi Smooth , Can you explain this also that I countered many times.
I want to buy Hive there and hive sell order price is "0.504902"
I will put 0.504902 in my attempt to buy and interface suddenly convert this from "0.504902" to "0.504856" and my order will not execute and it go and sit on Buy order.
So interface take a new adjusted value itself instead of given exact value.
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I don't know why that is happening. I would suggest increasing the price you bid a little above the sell order price.
I can't disagree with the premise of this post.
I was just thinking the other day how awful and archaic the internal market look and feel was. Hopefully we can improve that! It’s also terribly confusing lol
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That internal market sucks and you did not mentioned one of the biggest problem in internal market , might you have not actually traded much there.
Let say I want to buy Hive there and hive sell order price is "0.504902"
I will put 0.504902 in my attempt to buy and interface suddenly convert this from "0.504902" to "0.504856" and my order will not execute and it go and sit on Buy order.
This sucks more then their UI/UX experience.
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This can be annoying but it is the result of limited precision od HIVE and HBD token.
YES! It would be really helpful to upgrade the UI for the internal market.
Random Reactions:
I always thought the dollar sign was confusing and not helpful.
I am certain though that top witnesses use tools that constantly update their prices feeds as the price is always changing.
I think the top witnesses are very focused on the technical aspects of the blockchain which they are clearly great at security and keeping the chain running, but not many of them have a lot of interest in usability for the average person. In some cases they are clear that they just aren't that interested in the blogging sites, which is fine, but they tend to forget even gamers or other app users need to use the wallet, internal exchange and more.
Maybe one of the 2nd layer tool like Leo Dex can add a hive to hbd market.
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I can't say I pay too much attention to the internal market and the only time I use it is when I am offloading HBD that I have earned.
I think hive has bigger issues than this that need to be prioritised like making launching a project on here cheaper. I can spin up a token on Binance or any network relatively cheaply if not free.
Hive costs quite a lot and to get a pool happening it really isn't worth it.
Once we get a proper bridge and enable more tokens on the hive engine then we need a proper internal engine UI/UX.
IF you're a normie, Hive Engine is not something you will go near it took me a good year or two to figure it out.
But I do like the idea of a coinbase listing although we are on Binance which is the largest exchange and it hasn't done too much.
We need to make Hive compatible and bridgeable and worth having projects build here. Khal almost had an epic partnership but I think the others decided to go elsewhere not because of Khal but because of the challenges on Hive.
In time, no doubt they will be worked out and then we will be complaining about why our Hive stacks are too small lol
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I cant figure out hive engine. coins will say they went up 3000% so i'll look at them and neither the bid nor the ask nor last price traded has changed.
I just nod and accept it because crypto.
There's so much low hanging fruit in the hive ecosystem right now. For instance, if I google something and end up clicking on a leo finance article, the article has no other links on the margins of the page to other content. Nothing to bring me in further. When I'm done reading I simply leave the page.
Whether articles or shopping, almost every website or blog in existence has links on the margins to other things you might be interested in to keep you there long enough to care about the platform or to make a commitment to something. Not hive.
Why are we talking about bringing in outside traffic through SEO if once they get here there's no obvious path for them to go other than to exit? Makes no sense. But crypto.
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I believe things can be improved and hive intentionally done upgrade it's UI they believe many people are actually cool with with it
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The truth indeed is bitter . In as much as we Hivers tend to shower praises on the platform and the dev team , inadequacies such as the ones mentioned in this post of yours should be really taken note off.
As much as we like to hype the positives of whatever we do with Hive; we also have to recognize that if something blows, then it blows. While there's no easy way to provide negative feedback, we should be respectful as we relay bad news.
It's not that we want to throw shade on anyone or any project, but we need to provide honest feedback so that improvements can be made. The sooner we provide that feedback, the sooner improvements can be made, and the sooner we can all benefit from a project everyone can get excited about.
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You hit the nail on the head with this one .
Noted and Agreed!
If I use the internal market (I don't use external exchanges), then I'm only interested in the internal exchange ratio of Hive:HBD. For that the internal market is good enough imho. I would be more interested in transparency: insight to orderbooks and a user specific trade history accessible at least via an command line API.
And while we're talking about ideas: a long term trading volume graph together with a long term exchange ratio graph would also be nice to have.
Great points.
We agree with this post and that's why creating a new open source interface for the internal market that many sites could perhaps impliment is also on our list of items we're planning for this Hive Launchpad
https://peakd.com/hive-139531/@peakd/a-hive-launchpad-via-peak-open-projects-a-proposal
Letting a user indicate what price they want to use as the basis for one side of the pair can be a great solution (and defaulting to a better price basis in general)
This article needs more love, I don't think enough people have read it, or at least not everybody that can do something about it.