You are viewing a single comment's thread from:

RE: A Dollar Collar

in LeoFinance3 years ago (edited)

I'd say that the state is more unnatural than capitalism, as say in the case of a tribe, the tribe owns all, but works in a capitalist way to maximize the outcomes for all.

That doesn't make sense to me. Both states and capitalism are natural. States are so natural that states were born every single time in every human society, eventually. No matter how remote in time or space. Europe, Asia, Africa, even the Americas, before colonization, had states in different shapes.

The social organization doesn't necessarily relate to the organization of production. There can be a feudal state, there can be a monarchy state, there can be a republic state, there can be a socialist state, there can be a fascist state and there can also be tribes as a form of state. All of those states can use or not use capitalism in different forms because the society, production and economy are "Lego parts".

Now, tribes economy and production definitely do not work in a capitalist manner, not that they can't try but due to the social organization capitalism doesn't make sense. Tribes don't even need capital. In tribes everyone work as they can and get as they need. If tribes were capitalist the members of the tribe that could not harvest, hunt or forage would starve, and the "owners" of the tribe would not need to work, but that is not the case. The Brazilian tribes I have visited share the work and the production equally between all members that can work or that need the produce, that is possibly the opposite of capitalism.

Now in capitalism, specially due to unhealthy rent seeking behavior (like raising interests) it happens that those that can't work may not be able to eat, and those who live through interest and ownership of the financial system may be able to not only survive, but thrive and influence society without working. Capitalism, looking at both history and present, seeks not to maximize the outcome for all, but quite the contrary, seeks to minimize the outcome for most and maximize the outcome for few, because if it doesn't then people will be equal and it would become a tribe eventually. Maximize the surplus extracted from workers, maximize the profits from profits, and now maximize the yield on their capital through interests.

If there is no exploitation then capitalism would collapse because eventually people would become equal and we would become a huge tribe, why would we even need money and capitalist financial systems if everyone can work without exploitation and get their needed share of the produce? If that happens it is not capitalism. Capitalism is exploitation because without exploitation it would be a matter of time for us to become either a tribe or a socialist utopia.

The production and the work is socialized, all society participate in producing goods and services, but the result of the work, both the financial (surplus/profit) and material (products/services) are directed to the rich capitalist because they own the means of production and because the (work need for) production is socialized they own the society. The work is ours, the result is their. That is the basis of capitalism and without it in a few decades it would not be capitalism anymore. It would be awesome, but then suddenly the former owners of society would not have their privileges, because if the produces and profits were not exploited they would not have their overabundance, and that is why in capitalism the elites can not allow exploitation to end and the rate of profit to fall. If exploitation ends, or steadily decreases and we become a tribe or a socialist utopia they (capitalist elite) would not be "kings", they would have to become workers as a natural development of society.

As an example, Jeff Besos, that dude has yatches and planes but he definitely doesn't need them. He can afford that because of massive exploitation. Does he need massive yatches and planes? No. Does he produce enough to make yatches and planes? No. If he did not exploit he would never have that.

If the way tribes work maximizes the outcome for all, and our society aims to minimize the outcome for most, then to be "efficient" like a tribe the products and profits of production need to be socialized as much as the work is. Capitalism is failed because exploitation leads to the shit show we are seeing, and without exploitation it would not be capitalism anymore.

Sort:  

You have a lot of time on your hands.

Nature doesn't make states- humans do. They are natural in the sense that humans are natural, but as we should know, dinosaurs are natural too, nature killed them also.

I do understand where you are coming from, as it is the common understanding of it. But for example, Jeff Bezos isn't wealthy because he exploits, he is wealthy because we let him exploit. We make him rich, he doesn't make himself rich - we are the enablers here. We could do differently, we don't need to buy from Amazon. We could do differently, we don't need to use fiat currencies. We could do differently, we don't need to do what we are told - but we do do what we are told, don't we?

No human system will ever work on benevolence.

So you think we have a choice?

Absolutely. We are part of making a different choice here and in crypto. It isn't a fast or easy change though.