In a client session this morning, we were talking about what we would do if we were to retire today, and none of us really had a clear idea, but we all had a general level approach. While the others were about not working, mine (not surprisingly) still included work. But it got me thinking a bit and I moved the discussion to a more tribal experience.
When did someone retire from the tribe?
If we imagine a tribal group a few thousand years ago, there were still plenty of jobs to be done, but the "payment" for them came through being part of the tribe - protection, position, reputation, relationships. And, everyone in the tribe had a role to do, except likely the youngest of the children, who were completely reliant.
For example, while there were hunters and gatherers, there were also tool makers, cooks, builders, and clothing makers. But, depending on circumstances, the roles would need to change. For example, a heavily pregnant woman might not be able to do some tasks, so may be moved to others. An elderly man might no longer be able to hunt effectively, so gets shifted to a training position for younger people. And even the children who might not be able to add high expertise, would spend their time adding value through helping the professionals and learning the skills necessary to add value in the future.
There was no retirement age.
Except possibly in the last moments before death and no more value could be added.
In fact, retirement as we know it today is a very new human experience, as it was started in Prussia (Germany) in 1881 and it provided for citizens over 70, which was around the average life expectancy anyway, so many didn't get anything out of it. However, before that, no one retired, or of they did, they had to have done a few things in order to do so, like hold enough wealth so they didn't have to work. Or, have a family who was willing to look after them, even though they weren't bringing anything in - which is essentially like being an elder, without having to teach the kids. This is still common in some areas of the world today.
What I find interesting however is that even though it hasn't been part of our culture for long in terms of humanity, many of us seem to now have an expectation that we are educated, we work for forty odd years, and then we retire, no longer needing to add value to the community in which we live. Even if we haven't generated enough value to look after ourselves, we have an expectation that society should look after us, with "society" being other people in the tribe.
We have very quickly got accustomed to the idea that we can retire and no longer have to do anything of value, which is kind of strange if you think about it in terms of building a community. Yet, if I talk to people about this, they tend to believe that once we have put in our forty years, we are entitled not to do anything else.
Have we got enough societal equity?
Elderly people used to get looked after by their kids, but these days that isn't happening as much, partly because family units no longer live together out of convenience and other factors. So, an industry of aged care has been developed where we pay for what we used to get for free, which means we actually need more in order to retire comfortably, or be reliant on handout healthcare to cover the expenses.
At the same time, we have a lot of relatively healthy people who are older, but not able to work at what they would have earlier, because being an "elder" is not a thing. Instead of grandparents imparting their knowledge on grandchildren and helping them to be valuable members of society, we have built an industry that employs strangers to care for our kids.
It is far more convenient to pay for services.
It is also far more expensive and in many ways, is one of the reasons that we are less engaged with our community and feel that while we are entitled to support from society, we don't have to be a value-adding part of it. We look to add value to ourselves to cover the expenses of not having built the social capital needed to be cared for or, have our children cared for in the same way it was when we were in tribes.
This doesn't change much for me in retirement I think, because what I want to do is be able to do something that I feel adds value. If I am not struggling to survive myself, it is natural to look to add value to others, because that will be the most satisfying. And, if I am struggling, then it also makes sense to add value to others, because that is what would bring an income.
One thing is for sure, retired or not, I still won't enjoy laying around in the sun for long.
Taraz
[ Gen1: Hive ]
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This is something I witnessed with my mom when she retired at 70 last year. She is no good at sitting still with idle time. Even though she was able to retire from her full-time school nursing job, she still decided to work after retirement. Now she just works a three-day work week, but still goes into school to be a nurse for young children. I think she likes having purpose and helping the kids, even though she doesn't HAVE TO anymore.
I've spent far too much time working as an independent contractor without a 401K to think I have a reasonable shot at a comfortable retirement. Instead, I'm pulling for AI and subsequently, some UBI to help humanity once the need for labor subsides.
Runs in the family, eh?
I think we should all have possibilities to do this, especially since people are far healthier at 70+ than they were earlier. My day worked in some capacity all the way up to 80 - the last years it was donating his time as an art teacher to community groups.
You are also taking the investment route, so without a retirement fund, you still have a decent chance of being okay too.
Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes... I come from a long line of people who can't sit still!
My wife and I were just talking about this the other day since I am pretty close to being able to have my minimum amount in to retire. I honestly don't know what I plan on doing from this point forward. I might keep working here. I might go somewhere else. I might even do Hive full time if the price is favorable in three years. Who knows! I think the idea of apprentices and masters is something that has kind of fell to the wayside and it needs to make a resurgence.
I agree. I think that it might actually move that way in some degree, since it is very hard to get a robot to fix the plumbing.
Yep. If there is additional income to cover most expenses, this is possible. Hive alone to cover everything is folly though.
That is a good point. If I had not followed my current career path, I think it might have been cool to be an HVAC technician.
Yeah, you have to be living in a pretty rough spot to be able to live off of Hive these days.
Even at the height of Hive, I think many people wouldn't be able to live off it. More than now though for sure!
That's a good point too. I don't think I could live off it. A nice supplemental income. Perhaps...
Isn't that funny? We often rally against change, but then when it happens we accept it as the norm fairly quickly and at that point we reject the idea of losing that new change.
Anyway, interesting thoughts. As usual, I find myself agreeing them.
I also don't have any plans to stop working when (if) I retire. Beyond the idea of adding value, not working just seems boring to me.
Look at the last three years where out of fear, people accepted being locked in their homes and fined for travelling without a mask. We are largely a flock of sheep, with less usecase :)
Taking some long holidays are fun - being on eternal holiday, not so much.
I wanted to joke, that's because you're Finnish and then I realized that you're originally from Australia but I get you.
I also have too much pepper in my arse ( literally translated from Dutch )
:D What a great saying!
I agree :<)
Well, I would not buy a summer house (not so easy nowadays) and spend most of my time with the same things in the same place for years. Instead, I would try to travel and discover new places as much as I could.
I would be the same. Can travel for 20 years quite regularly for the price of a summer house.
Even though I'd be out travelling a lot more, I'd still be a part of a business of some sorts after "retirement", preferably my own business.
I'd like to work, but maybe not as hard as I'm working now or will be working a decade later. I work hard now so that I can have at least a bit of extra free time when I'm older, all these "moves" I'm making, these investments, they're all for the "future".
When and at what age will I retire? I don't know, I don't have a number, but I'll probably feel it when it comes. My father even as he's closing in towards the age of 70 is still as active as me, and has been quite active from his early teenage years. Of course, he's not as active now, compared to his 20s or even a decade ago, but he's still involved, he's the one who's still at the helm.
So, I guess that's where I see myself at that age, if I live that long lol.
Hard work doing something mundane or seen as to make ends meet sucks. Working hard at something you think is valuable for you and others is a different thing perhaps. Most jobs are pretty useless.
We all slow down and eventually break down, but it doesn't mean we have to sit and rust til the end :)
That's what I've always focused on, since my early teens. Don't know if it's good or bad, but I like focusing on newer things, one after the other.
OH HELL YEAHHH. 🔥
Retirement for some its what the society makes them believe they should do at a certain age looking at it logically we don't need to wait for retirement before we enjoy our life to the fullest everyday should always count.
We don't have to wait to add value either, yet we seem to spend time trying to avoid doing so! :D
I dont think that my generation - and indeed generations younger than me - will get to experience such a thing as 'retirement'. I think that the whole concept will be changed sooner or later.
I somewhat agree - since the younger generations aren't doing enough to retire in the same sense of the world. There will be a honeymoon period where they inherit the "boomer" money, but that will only last as long as they will spend it and put it into the pockets of the 0.1%
My dad dreads the thoughts of laying around in the sun. He always wants to do something. I do not see a retirement in his case because I know it's already in his blood to do something valuable with his time. Whether it's working on the soil, creating new homes for his chicks, repairing broken outlets at home, and working on the next housing plan for a client. He works round the clock until his head finally hits the bed.
I bet you he sleeps well at the end of the day. Most people who have trouble sleeping, actually have trouble working enough I think. It isn't just physical work, but also mental. those who feel they have put in a good day of work, tend to sleep well.
He definitely sleeps well. So you are right.
Retirement is when someone loses their productive time and their influence in social roles.
Lose twice if the assumption is not being able to invest something as added value for retirement.
Thankfully, my society still gives trust, influence, or "position" to a retiree as an advisor and guide to young people. value-added experience, I mean.
The compensation is social security, so that someone who retires still gets certainty over their rights, one of which is the guarantee of basic needs.
But for retirees who have investments in productive businesses, they are still productive even though they have retired. It will be better for both their position and influence in the community.
There's really no retirement, ideally.
There should be more of this around the world. It would make it a better place and start to build communities again.
The word retirement comes from the Latin word jubilare, with a Hebrew influence, meaning “to shout for joy “. This is why people sometimes refer to retirement as the golden age. The origin of the right to a retirement pension comes from ancient Rome.
Prior to the existence of pension benefits, the Romans created rules for the protection of the elderly in order to achieve a dignified retirement. One of these laws was the Law of the stork (Lex cionaria). According to this law, children were obliged to take care of their parents or elderly ascendant. The Lex cionaria, was inspired by storks, which, when they become adults and fend for themselves, take care of their elderly parents, protecting them and providing them with food.
In this context, history has recorded and recorded the evolution of what it means to us today to be a pensioner and at what age we should retire. The very nature of human beings, without any law being involved, determines the key moment when we must give up an activity, or change it for a less demanding one. By nature, we are stubborn and do not want to give up, because that would be a sign of weakness.
Retirement is closely linked to responsibility and capabilities. Even so, depending on where you are geographically and who is with you, retirement is not easy. I know elderly people over 70 who sell sweets, cigarettes, …, on the streets to supplement their pensions and make ends meet. And I know other younger people, in first class countries, who retired at 60, live very well on the pension they receive.
Things are NOT the same in different latitudes, despite the fact that we are all passengers on this great planet that shelters us. Thus, conformism while waiting to disembark is the universal pattern for the majority.
Supposedly:
It wasn't universal or for the elderly.
I don't know about the rules of protection for the elderly, but that is likely a thing, where people were obliged to take care of their parents. There was probably a fair amount that broke the law :D
And a healthy society is built to facilitate people to add value whatever their level, but add value, not only extract.
This depends on the country and what they did prior to 60 I think. Most countries don't pay much in basic retirement, which is why there are so many issues with elderly not being able to take care of themselves financially.
Yet funnily, people still want equality of result, regardless of the differences in the very people themselves.
With the modern era and era of civilization we have a great change in our jobs too, now we've retirement from job but at that time really there is no retirement from job and some old people can do better job's now rather than young people
I know companies that are not keen to hire young people, because their experience with them has been so bad. They want track record.
Family system is damaged too. People are being selfish towards the kids too. They want kids to help them, govt to help them, and they would want to live life like a king. And they want to use and throw kids. I feel family and marriage system getting damage in this era was long overdue and more would follow as long as the manipulation and backstabbing, control and other negative elements in the family don't get addressed. I guess retirement is kind of like pain unless you have all theses cards managed.
Depends on the family I guess. I think the family has been on the decline for a very long time. Some people think that vaccines are there to sterilize people - nah, social media is.
I honestly wish I never had to retire.
Not from the regular work I do now, but from those tasks I love doing and now do not have as much time as I wish.
One thing I love is the ocean of information you can find on the internet nowadays to learn new stuff and try it yourself. Coding, cooking, wood construction, gardening.....and biking!!!, yes, maybe I will have to get an e-bike as I get old but at least I will still be able to bike :)
I am sure I will be quite busy and cant wait to reach that point!
I feel I would never get to, but I know what you mean! There is so many things that can be done :)
The human nature, we need to do something for the feeling we add value to our life. If you don't have any direction where to go, you are a sinking ship!
I believe retirement is a modern concept that you don't need to follow. You can have experiences right now instead of waiting for the ultimate age, which is simply a number.
Would be nice if after retirement, we could also return to our perfect physical condition for the last 20 years :)
Whoa black sand, must burn the feet in the middle of the day.
It was alright. It is black because of the ash I think - volcano just behind it :)
All unemployed or jobless people are already retired 😊
What you think Retirement is only for peoples who are employees and have job or a business man or self employed should also retired for enjoyment
How it will apply to a hive witnesses, cryptocurrency or stock traders, can they all stop working sold everything to become retired?
I think retirement is becoming outdated term day by day, if someone have enough money he don't even need retirement because he is already enjoying the life, and a person who are struggling to servive may even not able to get rest before few hours of his death
Are they living the life? :D
How do they get enough money?
Yes they are living a life until they died because life not totally depends on money
And second one may get enough money from generational wealth or any other source of income
Did you think Elon musk have enough money to live a free life without worrying about money, Sr. Problem is that it's not about money it's about mindset
Considering that there is about 5% of the world that might be able to live off generational wealth, I think it is a good bet that most will have to work in order to become comfortable. Can you live off generational wealth?
Definitely if I earned around $500 per month I will not do anything other than learning and investing
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This more reason why we should envisioned the future more often now, while we still got full energized blood flowing in our veins...knowing that the good old days are fast approaching...
Most persons don't take this into consideration, rather living recklessly
This is simply passion, Doing what you love, and loving doing it, the joy here is the satisfaction or fulfillment you get when people consume your product, and say something nice
What the Prussians did was find an excuse to get the older, less capable people off the assembly line.
And we could afford retirement because of the extra production capabilities of the assembly line.
Rare is the boomer who has any sage advice to give.
The times, and technology has completely changed
Their programming/indoctrination is actually detrimental today (go to school, get a job, get married... These are all things that have lost all their value, and come with a high price tag)
What can the free love generation teach about being a loving partner? (they already taught us about divorce)
So, if we had a "tribe", what would we do with these boomers?
We don't even like the way they raised children.
It would take a lot for us to accept them into the "tribe".
I hear every once in a while, in the news, about euthanasia assistance becoming a thing.
On retiring, i suggest everyone forget that word.
Instead, work on refining your life.
Become financially independent.
This can be as little as having your own house and stored food to last 30 years. (basically no expenses)
But, you do not work to stop working, you work to find what you really love to do, and making that a reality. If you have enough money to pay the bills, you can do whatever you find makes you happy.
Unless sitting in front of the TV drinking beers is your happy place, then there is so much you can do.
That's precisely the WEF gospel according to some naive speakers. };)
¡Own Nothing, Have Everything!