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RE: Trump's Immigrant Agenda

in FreeSpeech8 days ago

Why do we worry about national border in the first place, and why do they need to be guarded in the first place?

Why do you lock the door to your home and not leave it open?
Why do you call the police when someone breaks into your home or tries to rob you personally? And if you don't or wouldn't do that, can you expect the same attitude from those around you that you say is yours?

Let me ask again: Would you fully accept that you are thrown back on your immediate surroundings and thus on your own skin? Without relying on an existing border with its law and order, you'd have no other chance, is that correct?
Where would you draw the line, one mile, ten miles, fifty miles away from you? Or to the street you live? Or around the place you work? Where?

An order exists already but your former government did not execute it properly. That created such agitation to the other half of the population (to use a simple number) that it now is on drastic mode. But why is it on drastic mode? Does it come out of nowhere? Is there a reasonable explanation, you can give? Since you seem not to have accepted mine in pointing towards "time" and "numbers".

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Why do you lock the door to your home and not leave it open?

National borders are not analogous to property lines, house walls, or my front door.

Why do you call the police when someone breaks into your home or tries to rob you personally? And if you don't or wouldn't do that, can you expect the same attitude from those around you that you say is yours?

I have a gun. If someone breaks in, we call 811 before we dig, not 911 for the cops. But seriously, citing a government-monopolized security service does not legitimize government any more than a government shoe monopoly would legitimize the state because people need to protect their feet.

Would you fully accept that you are thrown back on your immediate surroundings and thus on your own skin? Without relying on an existing border with its law and order, you'd have no other chance, is that correct?

Society arose before governments as we know them, and functions day-to-day in spite of government, not because of it. Governments routinely violate the laws and principles you claim we need them to enforce, and operates under standards we would not accept from our neighbors. Government is fundamentally a territorial monopoly in violence, or in other words, a mafia.

An order exists already but your former government did not execute it properly. That created such agitation to the other half of the population (to use a simple number) that it now is on drastic mode. But why is it on drastic mode? Does it come out of nowhere? Is there a reasonable explanation, you can give? Since you seem not to have accepted mine in pointing towards "time" and "numbers".

Order exists from the grassroots up, not from government down. Government plunders the productive economy, spreads a portion of their takings on enough shoddy monopolized services to buy popular support, and then borrow using us as collateral while enriching the politically-connected. This ever-growing cancerous monopoly of coercive power creates agitation as people play-tug-of-war in an effort to control it, engendering the escalating cycle of agitation, hate, and fear we see in modern domestic politics. The political class also diverts our attention abroad by blaming foreign powers, immigrants, and other outsiders as scapegoats. This is the real outcome of government power and border disputes.

I agree with the filth and the miseries caused through what you see as government. Only, I would call it "non government". It's not because the political elite is corrupt that one doesn't need a government, but precisely because it is corrupt that one needs one.

It is also the case that a government is needed, when there isn't actually one in office. Instead of working as it should, words and texts are being produced. Instead of leaving physical public structures such as water, fire and soil management to the experts in the field and on the water, one pretends that there is no physical matter. Instead of protecting people and material things - through a sensible budgetary effort - terms and buzzwords are protected. This is not real work, it is the simulation of activity. This is "non-government", but not "government".

If the world was not so interconnected and countries not so dependent on each other, nation states would not exist and a national government would not be necessary because people would not be travelling by plane and mass transport.

But since they do, and since goods are transported by air and water and railways in masses, and since goods reach the world market as a result, you can't just say that you don't need a national government. Someone will want to discuss the issue of importing and exporting large quantities of gas, oil and other commodities with you and will want to contractually negotiate the quantities for your nation, as well as international construction projects like pipelines. You'd want these nations to make a safe deal which lasts decades, and not until the next non-governor comes along.

If you leave it all to the ‘free market’, no one will stop an oligarch or a conglomerate from sinking their shark teeth into your country.
They tried it with Russia when the Soviet Union ended. Putin prevented that. Trump tries the same, but has a much harder job and maybe he lacks the skills and intelligence.

Unless you have no substitutes which gives the single individual the same quality and quantity of energy and electricity you need, you are dependent on having gas, oil and other essentials coming from foreign countries. In a modern world, you cannot isolate yourself, you need partners on the international level. Just for the sake of the big ones I mentioned, and I would like to add uranium as well, since atomic power plants need them to run.

Unless, you want go back and de-industrialize, do not drive a car, do not heat, do not cool and start living as a farmer or something less, you need a strong government which is able to reign and is not so paranoid to see enemies all over the world. But which is not so naive to see friends everywhere.

What exactly do you mean when you say "government?" There are many structures within society whereby we govern ourselves and form mutual agreements with others. When I specifically use the word "government," I mean a group of people who claim a territorial monopoly in violence. This usurped power can only draw the corrupt and corrupt those who intend virtue. Corruption isn't a bug, it's a feature.

The megacorporations people use as bogeymen of capitalism exist because they are intertwined with government. Incorporation is a legal process for protection in government courts. They lobby government for subsidies, protectionist regulations, bailouts, sweetheart contracts, and ever other anti-market intervention people say stems from free markets.

It does not follow that trade necessitates governments. It's also historically inaccurate. Merchants developed their own codes and courts because national laws don't work for free trade. They obstruct and interfere and turn innocent people into criminals. However, governments usurped many of these mechanisms in order to legitimize their interventionist policies and enrich their cronies while proclaiming they were somehow protecting us in the process.

Nationalism is isolationist. markets are global. It is the web of market prices and exchanges which made possible the automotive industry, computers, trade, and the rest of the modern world you credit government in your correlation/causation error. Strong government mean bad laws and worse wars. Police states and prohibition are anti-market, anti-individual, and anti-liberty. Arbitrary government borders are an obstacle to peace, progress, and prosperity.

Let's stick to the facts:

  1. governments exist, yours, mine, all others
  2. corporations exist

The wish for both to cease to exist is a wish. Nothing more.
Let's assume that the people of a nation succeed in overthrowing their government. How would they do that? Through the use of force by the citizens themselves? Well, even if that succeeds, what then? Does that put an end to a government? Hardly.
A government threatened by the people would immediately deploy its military and the whole thing would be over as quickly as it began. The times when the mob overthrew the powerful, as in France, are over.
Nowadays, governments are overthrown by other governments through their intelligence agencies and terrorist organisations, working with them. They then replace the previous figures with those of their choice.
In all cases, you end up with a government again.

Since this is the case, and since governments, especially in the West, have allowed an internal power structure to develop that is neither committed to a national identity nor interested in the well-being of the people themselves, the only solution is for a new elected government to bring down this internal power structure. Instead of, as is usually the case, making this internal apparatus more favourable to itself, whether Democrat or Republican, in your case. Which would merely be a continuation of the growing dependence of this apparatus - also known as the deep state.

In practical and pragmatic terms, it means using its existing sovereignty and given access over the accounting system, access to the budget books and thus being able to press the buttons on the computers to freeze and stop transfers and dismiss staff who are linked to the deep state.

The computers are located in official state buildings and are operated by official state employees. This technology and these buildings will not disappear by themselves. As long as both Democrats and Republicans did not take care of the books, because they each expected their own advantage from the existence of the deep state apparatus, the filth remained untouched.

Picking this gigantic mess apart will only work if you have an absolutely determined and fearless government that finally stops pandering, bowing and obeying this apparatus. That's what I mean by a ‘strong government’.

Whether we people on the outside want to agree in principle in our interpersonal and business relationships is completely irrelevant as long as the deep state operates unhindered and throws obstacles in the way of any business.

As it seems, the Trump team wants to fight deep state. It remains to be seen if they are going to succeed. It's a huge battle that needs to be fought. Whether or not they will waver, being tricked or seduced or influenced by their own vanity or other weaknesses and/or lack of knowledge and intelligence, is a question of the future.

Governments do not exist as something outside of the people claiming authority based on the idea. It has no more real substance than mythology. That is h people claiming government authority must act through violence and threats of violence to coerce others. There is no real consent or cooperation there.

Corporations are a legal fiction created under government law. Again, the people exist. their businesses with employees, buildings, material inputs, products, and services exist. Even shares of publicly traded corporations exist. But the corporation itself is an insubstantial thing.

Governments and corporations? Those are wishes.

I'm not calling for overthrowing government. I'm undermining it by arguing against its legitimacy. You cite the threat of violence. That is real,but does not justify government. If anything, it supports my case that it is an idea enforced by people who built it on a foundation of violence.

We're on a blockchain, technology designed to sidestep government control of money and censorship of media. HIVE is literally part of the process toward progress in spite of government violence and threats. Picking the mess apart isn't easy, but it is necessary. We begin by examining the ideas behind it.

You mention the Deep State. Do you really believe it's a bug, and not a feature? If we undermine the state, there is no Deep State anymore. If we pretend we can control the people who call themselves government, it just allows the Deep State to fester with a renewed veneer of legitimacy.

I'm undermining it by arguing against its legitimacy.

You can't effectively subvert it if you don't have the passwords to the computers that give you access to what's being decided over your head. And if you have no practical way to resist if you disagree with the government's decisions.

Can I ask you if you were disobedient during the plandemic? Did you say ‘no’ to every single measure that came up during that time? If so, was it the case that

  • either you had a strong protector at the top of the hierarchy in the company you worked for to cover your disobedience.
  • Or you were the boss of a company yourself and pretended to play by the rules, but you would have had to force your employees to obey because you didn't know the traitor among them.
  • Or, if such a cover-up was not possible, you were fired for not following the rules.
  • Or you lived on welfare and somehow survived by keeping your head down.

You mention the Deep State. Do you really believe it's a bug, and not a feature?

I do.
And people also are split in how they see it. There is no unanimity to be found.

If you are a character who came to the top of a scene, and you do not like to have a shadow force giving you orders how to proceed within your top position, you'd rather would like to get rid of that shadow force instead of surrendering to it.

Trump is such a character. He likes to have power and so he sees it as a bug and not a feature. I would say that what he sees as a bug is way more influential than what the two of us see. Since he can create a movement and an atmosphere, which he clearly intends to do. So the question is still debatable, I think.

Undermining the idea of governmental legitimacy is the way we address the rest. Government relies entirely on public acceptance of this veneer of legitimacy.

Your questions about COVID are avoiding the root question, but if you must know, I never got the jab, and I worked for a small enough organization in a suitably less-authoritarian area that there were no mandates and no firings, but I had already taken precautions if that were to occur. Stored food, tools, departure plans, etc.

The 'Deep State' is the inevitable consequence of a territorial monopoly in violence which must maintain an illusion of legitimacy to secure public acceptance. Even before Woodrow Wilson really kicked off American technocracy, there were insiders and influencers in the shadows. Power draws the corrupt like moths to a flame. Representative democracy is a myth, and constitutional republics are papier-mache walls against overreach.

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