Have You Been Here To Beautiful Honduras?
I want to simply tell you what this article here is all about.
This post is here to mostly talk about how that post regarding travel to Honduras was muted and that brings up a bunch of related topics as well.
I've included a bunch of links at the bottom of this page regarding related topics, etc, etc, which are somewhat related and connected to this post here, and you can check them out for more information.
So, before diving too deep into related topics and rabbit-trails relating to downvotes, the Bernie Sanders Steemit accounts, flags, censorship, how people are blocked, banned, deleted, disabled, suspended, muted, flagged, reported, attacked, big tech social media networks, blockchain alternatives, as seen in the links below, let's look at the main focus of this webpage really briefly right now, here is an incomplete rough-draft summary outline preview as follows:
First, one of my main concerns is in how we deal with new users. A major motivation for writing this includes my desire to help people join Hive Blog and other blockchain networks in general. Specifically for example, my brother Rick Arnold @rsarnold316 had this post about a trip or travel in Honduras and @livinguktaiwan commented and I quote, "Hi there, please note this is a travel related community, we'd love to see your post if you want to share your travels around Honduras. However, if you're post is related to other topics, it would be more suited to those relevant communities. Thanks."
In response to that comment, @thehive replied with, "You should remove that flag and educate. Positive reinforcement works better long term."
Secondly, not only do I want to talk about how we deal with people who are new to Hive Blog, I also want to talk about whether or not muted posts should be greyed out with hidden photos to appear as if it was flagged or downvoted in a way.
A related query would be in regards to whether we would want to have a way to separate a post from a community or group. So, in other words, if a post is muted or flagged in a group, could the post be resteemed or reblogged or shared to other places? The answer is yes. I shared that post and yet it was still hidden for what they say is "Low Ratings." Should the post be simply reposted? I mean, should the content of the muted post be simply copied and then pasted into a new post entry? Is that the best way to go about it or can we add a new button for divorcing posts from groups? Can the group tag or hashtag be removed or changed in order to remove the post from the group in order to make the post appear not muted or flagged?
This post here is an extremely quick incomplete rough-draft summary of some of the issues at hand and it includes some of the comments which I posted in in The Terminal.
You can find The Terminal on Discord.
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Why was this travel-related post muted for not being travel-enough and why are mutes hidden like flagged downvoted content?
Oatmeal Daily - 2021-02-17 - Wednesday | Published in February of 2021
Have You Been Here To Beautiful Honduras?
By Oatmeal Joey Arnold
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Downvoted For Travel?
My brother @rsarnold316 traveled to Honduras and posted about it. You @livinguktaiwan muted it and lied by saying it has nothing to do with travel because it was also about ministry and teaching English. That is a limited perspective on what travel is.
What is Travel to You?
I am deeply discouraged by how you view travel to mean only if the person is trying to not have a vacation in some foreign country. I see travel as any time you simply go somewhere. I will be posting on my blog about how sad I am regarding people like you who try so hard to limit what it means to travel.
New to Hive Blog
Also, my brother is new to Hive Blog. So, you are discouraging him from being part of your community or group.
Vietnam Venture
I was living in Vietnam for five years. By your own standards, I would be disqualified from sharing my photos of the pictures of the waterfalls in Dalat City in Vietnam and the list goes on and on.
Adventures in Hawaii
I would love to share my trip and adventures in Hawaii. But you would probably say that does not count since I was working with The Salvation Army while I was living in Hawaii. I strongly disagree with you and I am encouraging people to stay away from this community for being closed minded regarding what it means to travel. I thought this was a welcoming group but I guessed wrongly.
The newest post of my brother regarding his travel to Honduras was downvoted in a community on Hive Blog which was all about travel. The account who downvoted the post said the post had nothing to do with travel. I'm guessing it was because the post had an emphasis on how my brother teaches English to little boys and girls in Honduras. So, I guess, according to that travel group, if you help people while you travel the world, that does not count, that is not really travel. You cannot travel to also do ministry while you travel, no multitasking allowed. So, that post had around 5 photos of my brothers "TRAVEL" in Honduras and yet it was downvoted as it had, according to that person, @livinguktaiwan#6787, and I quote, "Hi there, please note this is a travel related community, we'd love to see your post if you want to share your travels around Honduras. However, if you're post is related to other topics, it would be more suited to those relevant communities. Thanks." That is a direct quote. This account is saying the problem is that the post relates to other things. However, to be frank, that is the paradox of life as all things relate to all things. It is a logical infallacy to even attempt to isolate and take things out of context to say something has to somehow NOT relate to other things at the same time. The post does relate to different topics as most things do in life. For example, a man can relate to the topics of being a husband, father, son, and friend all at the same time because that dude may be all four things at the same time. My brother literally took trips to travel to Honduras. He went back and forth from America to Honduras several times. My brother was born in America in 1982 in Oregon. My brother is American. My brother is NOT from Honduras. But his wife is. Maybe that account conflated my brother with his wife. I grew up with my brother in the 1990s in Forest Grove. My brother has a post all about his trip or trips or specifically "TRAVEL" in a foreign country. And that is not TRAVEL? A group about TRAVEL? I will be sharing this on my blog.
So, if I took a photo of me and the people I met in Vietnam, I would be downvoted?
What is the criteria?
What is travel?
Did I not travel to Vietnam?
Can I not post about my travel to Vietnam?
But if I said I also taught English in Vietnam, then what?
My brother mentioned the same thing that he taught English in Honduras, what is the difference?
Missionaries CANNOT travel?
Teachers CANNOT travel?
Which activities are NOT allowed when you do travel?
Where do you draw the line between travel which is not considered to be travel and travel which is to be considered as real tourist-style vague-life-perspective California Dreaming & Surfing Travel?
I can ask these questions all day, don't get me started.
If I travel but have a HIDDEN AGENDA, then it is NOT travel?
If I travel but made money while I travel, that is not travel?
So, you are saying travel posts have to describe specific details?
So, you are saying Travel Posts is a specific type of GENRE?
In other words, a Travel Post is a type of LITERATURE with certain expected formula of what must be written?
Sounds extremely specific.
Based on what I saw of what other people post, I doubt all the other posts meet all the requirements of the specific recipe.
I didn't realize the travel group was extremely specific
If you travel and accidentally taught English while off on your vacation, your holiday, does that magically turn your travel into not travel because you broke the sacred rules of what it means to travel?
I understand that a poem and a rap song needs a rhyme and likewise for this specific group, there are extremely specific requirements likewise. I didn't realize their rules would be that strict and closed-minded.
I would change the name of that group from Have You Been Here to Have You Pinned Here.
@Wes Philbin#5391, I looked at the other psots and thought I saw a pattern of what is allowed and what is not allowed in that group and was surprised to see I was unable to see the patterns.
This encourages people new to Hive Blog not to post due to crazy rules.
And that is what I am preparing to write about in a new post.
Friday, I made a Hive Blog account for my brother, I am trying to teach him how to use it.
@thekittygirl#7285, the biggest concern I have was that @livinguktaiwan#6787 did NOT mention how the post was not posted from Pinmapple and instead went on to say you cannot post about travel if you talk specifically about non-approved Travel Activities. That was my concern regarding the actual comment on that post, I came here to address the comment itself.
Not everybody does that when they post about travel.
I've read many travel posts which didn't answer all of your questions.
Not every person is an expert at knowing exactly what to say in each post to fit in imaginary genre as if we were all stuck in a Creative Writing class in college.
If the post sucked that bad, why not simply ignore it?
The photos showed what type people were in Honduras as you can see.
Pictures are worth a thousand words.
I would love to go to church and have the pastor talk about money.
I like unexpected things.
That is why people love Simon Cowell of American Idol, if he was a pastor he probably would talk about banking for an hour and I would love it, he was full of surprises.
That is why we watch movies to be surprised.
@riverflows#4691, if I was @livinguktaiwan#6787, I would have said future posts will be downvoted, this is your last warning. That is what police officers do sometimes.
It is not about emotions, feelings.
Don't be scared of hurting people's feelings so they have to crawl back into safe spaces.
The problem is not so much the words as it is the downvote.
The words are fine.
The action is what I am questioning.
I am not here to talk about the suggestion.
I have no problem with the suggestion.
My concern is with how rules are enforced.
Specifically relating to downvotes.
Which is connected to ongoing debates regarding downvotes which goes back many years now, at least to 2017 for me.
My main purpose of sharing this downvote here is to let people know what happened and to let we the people decide their thoughts relating to a specific downvote action whether right or wrong, I wanted to raise awareness to the action and to let people do as they please with this example of a downvote, I am using this specific downvote as an example, an illustration of an ongoing debate among many people for many years, this is not just about one downvote from this specific post.
@riverflows#4691, I agree that downvotes has a time and a place like spanking a kid might, not to say you should or should not hit a child, but a downvote might be in some ways like beating children.
Should we really downvote people who just joined Hive Blog a week ago or should we give new users and tadpoles a month of grace and forgiveness?
@Wes Philbin#5391, regardless of whether a particular post is downvoted or muted, it still hides the content in a similar fashion as a downvote would to force a person to click the SHOW button to see the content.
It's too bad a muted post in a group cannot be divorced to survive outside of the community without the downvote or mute which buffers the content or hides the content.
What is low ratings if not a downvote? Does a mute equate to low ratings as well?
Technically, the post has a manual pin as it says Honduras. It's too bad the group requires a certain type of pin which comes from the Pinmapple app, it is almost like requiring that your Twitter account has a blue check-mark or else you must be fake news kind of thing, meaning I find the specific pin requirement which can be met through other means outside of Pinmapple to be unnecessary at best and counterproductive at worse.
Being Sad
Why are you so sad today?
My brother joined Hive Blog a few days ago but then his post about travel in a travel community was downvoted or muted for not being about travel. Well, the post talked about how he was teaching English and doing church ministry in Honduras. So, he was told the post didn't meet specific Travel Genre requirements. I encourage people to give people who are new to Hive Blog some grace and forgiveness for their first month on Hive Blog. Give the new user a warning like police officers do sometimes.
It is only considered not travel in a sense that a poem might not be considered to be a rap song.
Imagine watching a RomCom, that a romance Comedy, and then saying this is not romance because it is comedy.
Sometimes, genres can be a mix of other genres.
Christians are itches, let's throw them into prison. I'm a Christian. I must be a monster.
Why is it even possible to post in that community via the Hive Blog app when it is specific forbidden to do so?
Can the web technicians not disable that on the Hive Blog app?
But the post did talk about Honduras but the problem is that it did not specifically say what you wanted it to say, it was not specific enough.
People who are new to Hive Blog are not given training wheels.
She should have asked for the content to be edited in order to meet the subjective standards of whatever travel means. Again, that is subjective like art is. She could have given a warning instead. Also, the post could have been ignored. If a person doesn't receive enough upvotes for a post, that would have told the person, "I probably shouldn't do that again." Right or wrong, silence can often get the message across a lot better. I've been reading travel blogs and meeting with expats in Vietnam going back to 2012. From my experience both online and offline, there has been a wide variety of travel related blogs and websites meaning it depends on the specific travel groups and communities and how they want to go about defining what a travel-related blog post is and is not. Sadly for this particular group, there was no specific check-off list detailing the exact requirements of how many words were required, how many photos were required, which topics could not be even mentioned in the post at all, which links and photos could not be included, which specific travel activities would have to be talked about and focused upon. The group didn't say what percentage of the post had to detail things relating to the people, the food, the dates, the hotels, specific places, specific activities. Therefore, it was left to generalized interpretation of how a post is to be prioritized, that is how much of a post is to be devoted to which specific aspects of a trip. When you travel, you can travel for business or for pleasure. Travel can include all aspects of commuting. People travel for work. The post about Honduras was partly a vacation. The post was a summary of several different trips going back over ten years. The post began mentioning specifics about 2018 but the whole story started in 2007 specifically and in some cases before that even. The post had an emphasis on the specific flavor of the type of travel it represented.
She said it didn't meet the requirements of her travel community. But the rules don't specify in clear enough terms meaning it is up to generalized creative interpretation according to the wide variety of travel blogs and websites from a wide variety of expats and others who I've been interviewing and following offline in Vietnam and online as well going back to 2012.
The group should have a check-off list of requirements.
My advice would be that they make the rules clear.
A muted community post which was reblogged or resteemed appears gray, the photo hidden, as if it was downvoted, that is what I see via the Hive Blog and it appears normal via PeakD and Eccency. My question would be if the Hive Blog developers know this, if they had it designed to gray out muted posts. If this is how they wanted it, that is their prerogative. People should let them know this if they don't already know about this.
How many are Repeat Offenders?
How many are Repeat Offenders? My advice would be to give new users a warning for their first incorrect post and simply mute them for additional incorrect posts. On top of that, you could simply mute older accounts. Say, an account that is at least a week or older. Don't warn them even for their first incorrect article. But I would give a person who is new to Hive Blog some forgiveness, some grace. However, at the same time, this post didn't break the rules apart from it not having an automated pin via the Pinmapple as it does have a manual pin called words which says it is Honduras. Moreover, an automated pin could mean some kind of geo-tracking which may have violated the 4th amendment in the American constitution regarding privacy rights which big tech violates. So, forcing people to be tracked is almost as bad as letting the Chinese Social Credit Score dominate your soul. I am writing a post about this as we speak. I can talk all day about twenty or more related matters connected to all of these things and more, to be continued, thank you for reading, thank you for watching, I'm the one and only Oatmeal Joey Arnold of Oregon 1985.
The post did not really violate the rules of this group apart from abnormal interpretation of the rules via reading between the lines to create a specific paradigm. Also, requiring geo-tracking via their app could be against the 4th amendment of America's constitution relating to privacy. And the list goes on on and on, I can talk all day about these things. And I'm writing a post about it right now.
Freeze Peach
I would love to ask Information War @informationwar and Freeze Peach @freezepeach for their thoughts on the matter.
Have You Been Here To Beautiful Honduras?
Telling The Truth in a World of Lies
Thanks for RE-blogging my Vlog/review! It ment a lot to me to see that.. I was vary surprised when I checked on your brothers profile and saw he had made his first post; then when I went to check it out, all the photos were stricken, and the 1st and only comment on his 1st post was telling him about how it wasn’t good enough.
Here is the thing: All men are disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable. Why, when hive is in its infancy, would we choose to suffer and simply “Let It Go”?
We have a chance to do some amazing things here on hive... including, but not limited to: Allowing the group owner, or admins who have been given permission: to “divorce” a post from their group. But! It shouldn’t be at the discretion of an individual group MOD to implement a narrow view of “travel”
But I guess the free market is what it is, and if other people don’t care because they also share a narrow view of travel, than I guessed you might be missing out on definitely 3 patrons myself included, and possibly many more in the future, if these actions are to persist.
@livinguktaiwan You should let the market, decide what travel is, not your subjective opinion.
I didn’t come to hive, for hundreds of individuals who act as judge,jury,and executioner regarding people’s content.
Thank you for these words. Well, I have mix feelings about the situation. I believe the post was a travel post. But at the same time, they can say it is not a travel post even if it is. However, if I was them, I would simply put a warning on the post and say next time posts like that will be muted. Problem solved.
Same type of activity that leads to the dissolution of many different types of online communities.
Are you talking especially about forums, message and bulletin boards?
No just in general, internal balkanization and the causes that lead to it is something that should be avoided at all times.
Are you describing centralization of power? If so, I agree I prefer decentralization.
I'll have some more Vlogs and expand on my opinions, but what im getting at is that when dealing with mass amount of people with all different personalities and life circumstances.. You can do alot of good acts, but all of the things that may be perceived to be "bad acts" will shine much brighter, atleast momentarily. so it's best to mitigate that by being lenient, and dealing with it on a personal level and having dialogue BEFORE doing things like what happend to your bro.. I mean literally his first post ever.. BAM! mute.. Thats going to stick around for a while. because the people who are dealing with it are acting like A.I.
We all try to educate and this is a well written blog , you explained well BUT we also said that the community was the wrong one. Maybe add some more travel details or better yet do another blog about the travel to and from Honduras and tell us about the cities you were in.
I said it before and I will say it again LET IT GO.
Stay safe and talk soon
And I am glad we could all help you in the terminal
Finding that invisible line between what is deemed travel related and not actually travel related is what I find puzzling, extremely subjective, extremely up to interpretation of those reading it, especially in the absence of words. For example, take National Geographic. This travel magazine may have posts similar to that post about Honduras. And that is just one example of a travel magazine that would not meet the criteria of that group. I can do this all day. What is and is not travel depends on who you ask and I've asked many people. What I find is a wide variety of opinions relating to this topic.
Muting is annoying, but at least it doesn't kill your rep.
Communities should be scrambling for new members. If they're a bunch of goons who don't want you to promote their club, just find another one.
I hope they will change their opinion and attitude to writing posts
I also don't understand why curators do this,an excellent and interesting post
Muting is better than a flag but the problem is in regards to a post that is literally not in that group in the sense that a mute either does or should remove the group tag to then remove the post from the group. If muting does not remove the post from the group, what does it do? If muting removes the post from the group, then why does the mute have continual effect on a post which is no longer in that group? Why does a post which is not mute outside the group on my own home page have to appear as if it was downvoted or flagged? My concern is with what and how muting works.
My understanding is that if you create a post and you post it to a community, then the mods of that community can mute your post and that post will show muted everywhere, even if it is reblogged.
Your best bet is to simply copy the content from that post and re-post it (like a brand new post) to either "no-community" or to another (more welcoming) community, like "freespeech" or "logiczombie".
No. It does not show the appearance of being muted. It shows the appearance of being downvoted. The photos are hidden and it actually says that the photos were hidden due to, and I actually quote from what I see on Hive Blog, it says, verbatim, "This post was hidden due to low ratings." See the screenshot. But it does NOT have LOW RATINGS. That is a LIE.
The points I've been making regarding problems are nuance and several folded. You're making points of things people do and can do. It is like running into problems on Twitter. You would be the guy saying to me, "Go to Gab, Minds, Bitchute, Brighteon, Hive Blog, blockchain networks, alternative social media in general, other places, other things, etc, etc, etc." We can talk all day until we are blue in the face from wearing masks. We can talk all day about what we can do. I don't disagree with what you are saying.
However, you're missing some if not all of the points I'm making regarding what travel is, the fact that muting should not equate to having low ratings, to how a group is simply a tag from a technical perspective on how websites work, how new users should be given warnings, how such actions can scare away people who are new to Hive Blog, and the list goes on and on and on, etc, etc, we can talk forever about the details, the nuances of everything.
I agree.
The community "MUTE" generates the same hidden message as the blacklist and the below zero rewards and the low ranking.
I'm not sure the powers that be will ever care enough about the nuance to create a specific message that says "this post has been MUTED by community admin".
I also wanted to make sure you're aware of BLURT which is a hard-fork of HIVE but with no downvoting and no rep (upvoting only).
You can log onto BLURT with your HIVE account name and keys.
https://blurt.world/@practicalthought
I get it.
Emphasis on TRAVEL.
Please do not mention anything about your DESTINATION.
Eeeeeeeeexactly what I was thinking.
You better show pictures of the road/air on the way, or get blasted.....
I'm starting to think that, like PolicE enforcers, the same types gravitate to 'admin' positions....not speaking of you, who I obviously approve of 'Admin-ing', but the great majority, are like cops that care not of their own laws, but only their egos, and control.
I understand the confusion.
I was extremely hesitant to post in the "Deep Dives" community.
But luckily they seem pretty chill.
If we keep downvoting the newbz, we can forget about "the great HIVE onboarding".
There are a lot of trumped up little dictators on Hive using their downvotes to boost their own fragile egos. It hurts the platform and drives away new users. Standing up to them and exposing downvote abuse as you are doing here can help stop this happening. And it has been increasing recently so now is the time to speak up.
I sometimes feel like not speaking up when I see downvotes partly because I feel I could be blown out of the water similar to the things that happened to accounts which attempted to expose the Bernie Sanders accounts and bots and everything on Steemit these past few years going back to at least 2017 and I want to say allegedly in the sense of I don't exactly if that Bernie character was right or wrong in flagging people everywhere. From my perspective, I think Bernie was a little insane. Is he on Hive? Should I duck for cover lol?
There are other power accounts downvoting people now, and there are groups pulling strings behind the scenes.
Check out this post:
https://leofinance.io/@krunkypuram/cancel-culture-and-the-parameters-of-free-speech-on-leofinance-is-something-amiss-or-am-i-missing-something
Oh, thanks, your link gave me my first preview of Leo Finance. Based on what I read on that post, if true, that doesn't really motivate me to use Leo. Well, I've been thinking about using Leo. I've heard about it on and off for like months now.
Is Leo Finance just a different app of Hive Blog blockchain like Ecency, PeakD, Hive.blog, etc, or is Leo Finance kind of separate like a connected chain to the Hive blockchain? Does Leo have their own Leo tokens? Are there like any posts on Leo which do not also display on the entire Hive blockchain or ecosystem in general?
I would only defend Leo to the extent they were to say they would censor and block certain things, if they actually said they would. I'm going to guess Leo never specified. One of my concerns would be in regards to hypocrisy, double standards in how rules are enforced differently for different users as seen on Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, etc. So, for example, if Leo said you can do anything, say anything, but then they come out downvoting and flagging some people for certain things, then I find that to be kind of like a Pharisee. It's kind of like a contradiction, a paradox, to say you support free speech while running around calling white guys a bunch of racists, sexists, deplorables, etc.
By the way, I have not flagged. I don't downvote. I prefer just to focus on upvoting what I like as opposed to focusing on downvoting. Like if Hive was a garden, downvoting would be like pulling weeds and upvoting would be like planting flowers, trees, other plants, etc. I'm going to be focused on watering the garden. Not that I don't think pulling weeds is never ever necessary. I understand the value of pulling weeds.
In some ways, you can argue to say accounts can downvote for any reason or for no reason at all. So, I am not going to necessarily disagree that an account can purposely or accidentally flag. However, I will say that if I see somebody downvote something and I don't like it, I may write about it in order to let people know. To use another analogy, downvoting might be like punching a person in the face. I would rather not sweep you off your feet. The old master guy in The Karate Kid films would generally use the attacks of his opponents against themselves. In other words, as opposed to attacking, he would do some Kung Fu stuff to use their own momentum against them. Which reminds me of Jedi Master Yoda in Star Wars. And even Yoda would fight people which brings up the the fact that there is a time for war and a time for peace, a time to upvote and a time to downvote. But for me and my own little soul, I'm going to focus on upvoting most of the time.
Yeah, like you said, it looks like some big dolphin accounts or whale accounts are running around like Will Smith in Fresh Prince of Bel-Air, starting trouble in my neighborhood, da da, I got in one little fight and mom got scared, she said you're moving with your auntie to a place called Bel-Air.
yES.
LINK TO SOURCE
Good way of putting it. Exactly. Pretty good summary.
Yeah. Several things mentioned here. One, people struggle. Two, people can do things like join Hive, Steem, Blurt, etc. Third, jerks come like you said. Bullies crash the party. That's why we can't have nice things so to speak. Fourth, people upvote which is good.
Sadly and strangely, fifth, people, some being dolphins and whales and maybe even sharks, come in and they sometimes begin starting trouble in the neighborhood. They cause problems like I said in number three, they crash the party. But specifically, they flag, they downvote.
That brings up the debate regarding whether or not downvoting should be allowed or not. This post in particular would be a good argument or rebuttal to the failure or the problems of downvoting. This is a good example. I don't like downvotes myself. I'm not going to absolutely say there should never be downvotes. I don't downvote people.
This article here is a good highlight to why we should have no downvotes or to how it can sometimes be abused. I guess there would need to be an alternative to downvotes or other systems in place to counter spam, trolls, abuse, trafficking, child porn, illegal things, very bad things, imaginary hate speech so to speak (I might be joking about this one), etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, and/or perhaps maybe not. I don't know exactly as it is possible the free market can counter bad things to some extent.
Or in some ways, you can't exactly always and completely stop bad things. Downvoting may be there in part as a desire to stop bad things. And I think that is nice. Downvotes can stop bad things and it can also stop good things and good people as mentioned in this post. So, that is where the debate is. What is the lesser of two evils, the potential evils of downvotes or the potential evils of not having a way to downvote anything at all?
I was unable to post this on Blurt. Maybe the comment was too long or maybe it is just technical difficulties for a particular app of Blurt World.
I've always believed the MUTE button and optional community MUTE lists (that mirror NSFW functionality) are far superior to "downvotes". (IFF) someone is violating the law, (THEN) it is law enforcement's responsibility to track them down and drag them into court.
I agree and deleting something could be interpreted as removing evidence of the transaction of the crime in the same way removing security footage or audio recording would be.
It follows the same line of logic for both cases and yet people use cognitive dissonance or whatever they use to illogically departmentalize and conflate (some things) and they especially make distinctions between things which are the same. Evidence is the same as other types of evidence and yet they will argue and say they are aliens to each other ahahaha. Sad but true.
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