A few weeks ago, we had some Hive drama. Not unusual, I suppose, so I should specify. The specific drama I am talking about is the Splinterlands proposal and some of the backdoor politicking done on behalf of that proposal.
People were somewhat split on the proposal itself, with the main complaint being that it didn't give enough detail to justify the large funding requested. I'm not going to get into the specifics of that. I will say I have been in Splinterlands since alpha, I was very involved in the beginning, and I still own a substantial amount of cards, though the total value of those cards has slipped substantially in this bear market. Despite the fact that the proposal could directly benefit me quite a bit, I am not voting on it, for the reason I list above. Take from all that what you will. You all please make your own decision about it.
Anyway.
Then the somewhat distasteful backdoor politics entered the scenes and that is where the drama started. Again, I don't really want to get too much into the weeds here. Start with this post if you missed the drama and want to catch up. That will give you an idea anyway.
The real result of that drama is that the Return Proposal has gotten a lot more attention than it once had and many more people are becoming aware of it. Judging by how it keeps increasing, as people become aware of it, they are agreeing with it and voting on it. So I thought we'd look at just what that is and what it means in this post, for anyone not aware. The number one lesson here is that You Have The Power!. The lower classes are often more powerful than they think, and that is true of Hive as well as society. But we'll get to that.
The Proposal System
What was once not as well known has recently been given a lot more attention. This is the Proposals. If you've never looked at them, you can see them here. On Peakd, click on your name in the upper right corner, just scroll down and see Proposals.
Here is a list of things people want DHF money for. You can scroll through the list, clicking on any proposal to read more. At the bottom of each proposal is a "vote value" which lists how many votes the proposal has gotten. To the right is the daily pay the proposal is asking for (and/or receiving) from the DHF, and how many days remain on the proposal.
Just browse through the list. You will see some pretty crazy numbers.
You as a Hive user can vote on any of these proposals. The value of your vote is based on how much Hive Power your account has, but even if you don't have much HP, your vote does matter. Enough small votes add up to a pretty big vote.
One thing the Proposal system doesn't have is a downvote button. So then, how do you vote against any proposals you disagree with? You don't. It's support or don't support. However, there is one additional thing you can do in addition to simply not supporting things you don't agree with.
Scroll down the list and near the bottom you will see this:
This is the return proposal. Any proposal that has fewer votes than the return proposal will not receive DHF funding. The return proposal used to hover around 20 million votes, sometimes more sometimes less, but after the Splinterlands brouhaha it shot up to 30 million and it has been climbing since.
There is a lot of that previously mentioned distasteful politicking going on behind the scenes and people with a lot of HP are being pressured to remove their votes from the return proposal. It was up to nearly 36 million a few days ago and the LeoFinance proposal fell below it, losing funding, but since then the return proposal has lost about a million votes. You can be sure there was a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes to make that change happen.
You Have the Power
The key take away here is that you have the power. Regardless of what your HP level is, you do have power. If enough minnows vote, even @blocktrade's massive vote can be countered.
Personally I think the Return Proposal should be high, even higher than it currently is. I don't say that out of malice to any proposal, I say that simply because I think it should be pretty damn hard to get a proposal passed. I don't think there are nearly enough checks to the system. Far too many past proposals have simply not done what they claimed they would do, so they basically walked away with money for free. In lieu of a better way to check that people are actually using proposal money as intended, I think the bar to entry should be as high as possible.
For that reason, I think everyone should vote on the Return proposal. If there is a proposal you especially like, vote on that too.
Anyway, your choice, so please make one on your own. But whatever you do, I would suggest you go vote on things on this page. You are a part of Hive and you have power here, so use it.
❦
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David LaSpina is an American photographer and translator lost in Japan, trying to capture the beauty of this country one photo at a time and searching for the perfect haiku. He blogs here and at laspina.org. Write him on Twitter or Mastodon. |
Thanks for this Proposals explanation post! I was doing something similar in the #HHHLive show speaking about proposals and raising awareness about them... All that is great, but as you said, voting for Return Proposal should put additional weight on those who would like to be funded, and by doing that, they will "promote" the importance of voting (or not) for proposals!
So, in some weird way, voting for the Return Proposal could help show the importance of governance voting on HIVE... Small accounts DO have the power to change things, but we have to be more involved in shaping the future of HIVE...
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And thanks for your talking about it on HHHLive. Let's keep spreading awareness of this as much as we can.
Thank you for this information -- definitely voting up the Return Proposal!
Good choice!
As a projects manager I find it abhorrent the lack of project controls in these projects! DHF Money is thrown around like confetti with fcuk all accountability.
Where is the incentive for projects to come in under budget and on time? None, it is the opposite, projects can just keep milking the DHF on a daily rate for as long as they can get their mates to vote.
I am in total agreement with you. So let's get the return proposal up as high as we can to prevent this abuse.
Agreed. The actions I've seen lately can be a bit on the distasteful side when it excludes what would be of benefit to the average or newbie creator.
Absolute craziness! Happy to vote the return proposal, unhappy that I don't see some of the bigger stakeholders on the list of votes.
Return proposal is the best proposal ❤️
Absolutely!
I wonder if that's new, the last time I renew and checked my vote it wasn't there. Thanks for the reminder, I am voting on that return proposal, it's going to be helpful to have that implemented and great filter for better use of DHF money.
Hmm.. I'm not sure. All the more reason to check in on the Proposals page at least once a week.
Thank you for the lesson. Things make a little more sense to me know. Heading over to check things out now.
You're welcome!
The Return Proposal is an important instrument at our disposal and we should use it (wisely). We should also vote on the proposals we think should get funded, otherwise the DHF loses its purpose. I am also of the opinion that the DHF system can be seriously improved.
Absolutely. It is frankly an ill thought out disfunctioning disaster right now.
Wonderful post DB! I've heard that term, return proposal, a lot lately and never understood what it was. I do now, and have voted for it, along with another proposal I didn't know was a proposal :)
Awesome. Thanks for the vote!
Thanks for supporting the return! It all counts and helps!
Sure thing! Not sure why I didn't know there was a bar for proposals that could be voted o, but I'm glad to have me vote counted now.
To your point, @dbooster, ...
... I think a very telling "stat" would be to know exactly how many minnows ...
I could elaborate:
How many, i.e. %, of the minnows who are still in any way shape or form active on the Hive blockchain would it take?
Based on the answer to the above, what it would realistically take in the way of informing, then motivating, them to reach this objective?
On the Hive blockchain "food chain," what would happen if you include dolphins and orcas? Who have "learned" (been conditioned?) to understand what it takes to get "higher on the food chain?" And, as a result, whether they are willing to take "it" on, at the risk of "losing ground" ...
I could write more points, but ... You get the idea ...
Thanks for writing this. I hope you are encouraged by whatever overall response it and similar posts / initiatives receives ...
Good questions. I admit I am making some assumptions here. In my curation for various projects I see a lot of active minnows, far more than any other group. But what the exact numbers are, I don't know nor do I know how to get them. It may be more my fantasy than reality when I say all of them could add up to blocktrade's vote.
Interesting if you play with the pie chart linked to on the return proposal, you see some weird things. The 1k - 10k group votes in power enough to dwarf the 1-1000 group, then stepping up the next group, 10k - 100k, again dwarfs the previous. Stepping up to 100k-500k, they do manage to have more voting power than the previous group, but only barely, then stepping up to 500k-1m, this group is far less than the previous group. Then of course when we step to whales it overwhelms all the other groups.
I'm not a stats guy nor much for math anymore, so I'm not really sure what these numbers tell us, but it's interesting to look at.
As a retired engineer and Business Systems Analyst, I can first say I do not know them either. However ...
"At a glance," the challenge to come anywhere close to overriding the very few active whales is overwhelming. Particularly when combined with the fact they clearly will "act" when what they perceive as their self-interest is threatened. I have been "in here" too long to pretend otherwise ...
That said, it is commendable that you chose to raise this topic. FWIW, @spinvest just wrote a related post. Which does have some numbers ...
All the best to both of you, as well as anyone else, willing to try and make the necessary changes needed to address this foundational problem on the Hive blockchain!
I've always voted on the return proposal I think. At least lately anyway. I think it is a good safeguard for us to have in place.
Totally agree!
Can anyone explain where the Value Plan proposal is or is that from a separate funding source?
I was going to reply and point it out, but looking now I don't see it either. I know it was there, and fairly high up because it received blocktrade's vote, but I don't see it now. Maybe it ended.
I thought I would see it there also especially as it receives so much funding from the DHF.
@dbooster and @ammonite Here it is. https://peakd.com/valueplan/@valueplan/value-plan-q4-proposal-general-information
Note also that this is only Valueplan's 21st post, according to the HiveBuzz notification, so it is easy enough to read back through the last 20 posts and get a sense of what is going on. In their 2023 half-year report (strangely, there is no half-year report this year), one can see their breakdown of how they spent money and use it as a guide to get some idea.
Also note this. Here is the data on the top 20 places where crypto is being adopted in the world, for further comparison: https://www.chainalysis.com/blog/2024-global-crypto-adoption-index/ This is another good guide to check what is being done by what big data says is likely to be most effective.
Fully agree on this man! I actually wrote about this a week or two ago. I have since supported the Return Proposal so that folks can't just get guaranteed funds out of the DHF.
As for the Splinterlands drama, I haven't been up to date on that but I will peruse it, thanks for the link.
Awesome to hear you also wrote about it. Sadly I think most people are still unaware. Let's keep trying to spread word as much as we can.
The Splinterlands drama is wild. I didn't know Aggro was that type of dude but I'm not surprised. I see he deactivated his witness too lol. Formerly top 20, now he's bailed.
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Interesting, I did not realize that.
Great post and explanation! !PIMP
Thanks!
I view voting the return proposal and any proposals like flipping the system on it's head, so instead of voting to support what I like, I vote for the return proposal, effectively downvoting everything by raising the bar, then vote on proposals I agree with to 'remove' that 'downvote'. So I make it harder for anything I don't vote on while being almost neutral on anything I do.
That's a fair viewpoint.
Interesting. I had a similar thought when I voted on the return after reading this post. The proposal system is an odd dichotomy for sure.
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The return proposal is a complete cop out that does nothing to vet, manage, or reject proposals in any kind of meaningful way.
There is also a complete lack of control as to whether recipients even do what they say they are gonna do, and absolutely no assessment of the benefit to or impact on either Hive or any community on it.
It is simply not fit for purpose is what I have learned from these recent events and it is as much of a liability as a potential benefit.
Shambles!
I agree completely. I would prefer better management, better control, and so on. Absolutely that is what we need. But... since we don't have any of that, the return proposal is only only real option, hence I want to get it as high as possible. Maybe if no one can pass anything there will be some motivation to actually reform the system and give us something better.
That would be a funny situation indeed but probably unlikely!
Until the Top 20 or so hive whales want change to happen, nothing ever will, so somebody needs to call them out on it and see what they say.
I hear your criticism but how do we change it? Identifying problems is fairly easy but offering solutions is what we really need.
How would you change the system? I would love to see you write a post about it in the community here!
Hi there,
Managing a discretionary fund is pretty simple, but I have serious doubts as to whether the hive whales want it, care about it, or will do anything about it.
I really, really, like Hive, and want to love it, but it is full of idiocy and mean, nasty people, with a few noble exceptions, so it really needs to clean up its act and engage in some positive outreach.
I rarely write posts since being told with my HP level, my thoughts count for nothing and I should just shut up, so will not be writing that, as I would expect the asshat whales to hammer me....
Huge information thank you!
You're welcome!
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