Well, that is that - both Finland and Sweden have announced their intention to apply for NATO membership. As both are part of the EU, I don't really know what this brings to the table, other than making the EU look militarily ineffectual and ununified, because;
"If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power"
And this includes the mobilization of local NATO assets from EU members, even if NATO doesn't want to get involved, which effectively provides a double-layer defense framework for an EU member, even if not part of NATO.
It has been interesting however, because the Finnish population has pretty much been against joining NATO for many years, with as late as late last year, only 30% of the country in favor. But, with Russia's move into Ukraine, that has jumped dramatically upward to 75% approval for joining in the last couple months. It goes to show how quickly fear can swing opinion and, how quickly decisions can be made, especially for example, since Sweden has remained unaligned for 200 years until this.
Of course, the hope for most people is that war never happens, but unfortunately, "hope" doesn't stop power struggles at the top of the controlling food chains. For all of those in hope, it is accepted that when it comes to what actually happens in regard to war, we have very little say in matters. Money talks.
However, what is going to be interesting in the future is what happens when that "money" is decentralized and to make these kinds of decisions and commit to war, the support of individuals is required in order to fund it. If you had to pay for supporting directly from your bank account, would you?
Fear drives so much of our decision making at the highest levels and often, once the decisions are made, rolling them back is near impossible. Look back at the extension of powers post-9/11 and realize that they have only extended further since. It is like the age old car salesman approach of "keep getting yesses" no matter whether the car is suitable for purpose or not. Every time they want a decision supported, they will use fear as the motivator to swing public opinion, because we are made to feel that we can't protect ourselves.
And in many ways we can't, but what we need to consider is that which we need protection from in the first place. For the most part, we don't need it from each other, we need it from governments that are very much like our own, using the same techniques as our own to make their populations fearful of us.
At the end of the day, the vast majority of people in this world are very similar in most respects, even if the governments that control them vary. Most people want a safe life with some opportunity to be successful, food on the table, education for their children and enough extra to have something special from time to time as a treat. We really aren't so very different at the core, but let the governments and the media define us and those they position as our enemies, and we are made to look like we could never get along.
Is this the case?
There are always conflicts amongst humans, but it is very unlikely that all of these conflicts would go (literally) nuclear if we would argue amongst ourselves at a low level. Firstly, who the hell is going to fund nuclear weapon development in a decentralized economy? The only way something like that can be funded is through centralized tax and, it is done in secret and out of the visibility of the population that funds it - because you know, national security. Funny eh?
Look at all of these different groups and consider that they make the decision to help or not to help on whether the subject in question joined or not - not on whether it is the right thing to do. And what it means is that none of this is about any kind of ethical position, it is about business, purely about money. Your money and my money, and how they are going to spend it.
There are a lot of nuances and complications in all of this, but don't for a minute be fooled that it is about the protection of a population, because unless they sign, there will be no help forthcoming. This makes it a protection racket - pay your dues, or something might happen to your shop. It is thuggery dressed in suits.
Greed and fear know no bounds.
Taraz
[ Gen1: Hive ]
I think a protection racket is usually a 'pay your dues or else something mysterious will happen to your shop', ie, the people demanding the money will wreak you up. Joining NATO seems, to me anyway, like joining a Body Corporate.... everyone pools their money and resources to help the areas that need attention.
With Russia right on Finland's doorstep, joining NATO seems like a good way to get Germany's brand spanking new expensive military and the USA/UK nukes to help Finland out if Russia steps over the line. I'm not sure I entirely see the downside for Finland...?
As a member state of the EU, Finland has access to Germany's military, because there is a directive that says that if any EU country is attacked, then all other states will defend it with all they have available. Nato is "double protection" only.
Ah, I see. I didn't realise the EU had that agreement.
So I guess the difference is that NATO offers the resources of the US, UK and Canada... and since the US currently (before Germany decided to start spending) spends more than the next 9 countries combined, it's not, ah, nothing. The UK is no slouch in the military spending department either. I honestly didn't realise that NATO had such significant military resources at its disposal.
Perhaps the EU cannot protect Finland and Sweden. The reason is that Europe depends on Russian oil and natural gas. I don't think the US, UK, France or Germany are likely to go to war with Russia from my point of view. Rather, Finland and Sweden will be controlled by the United States and the European Union.
No, they aren't likely to go to war with Russia, because to do so means WW3 and that is nuclear obliteration.
That's a very big blow to Putin. Could Russia possibly decide to take steps against these countries? Seeing that his justification for invading Ukraine was the "unjust" NATO expansion..
yes, he could. However, if he does, it is WW3 anyway, as it means a direct attack on the EU and that automatically sets off a European defense mechanism. If they are struggling in Ukraine, fighting across a 5000km border isn't going to end well for anyone.
I saw something briefly on that and think it’s foolish to the core. Collectively the EU and NATO aren’t even that strong if we are being honest. A serious threat like China could walk all over the armed forces of those two groups in a couple days lol it’s really just virtue signaling and trying to coax more tax money out of the plebs of the countries sadly.
Fear is one hell of a control mechanism they have learned quite well from the psychological experiments of the mid 1900’s and each time they start this shit they ramp the fear up to a maximum and see how people respond. I think it annoys them that 25-35% of the population doesn’t go along with their bullshit fear. I wish it was more than that but I think that’s better than 10%!
Yeah, it is more of a social move than anything - and as you say, a way to extract more from the people.
The populations globally are starting to break apart because of these cycles and while some wake up, it creates new conflicts that get leveraged to drive fear and division further.
Yes fear, with what you can make someone do even what they don't want to. This is called social engineering. We were experienced it by Covid-19.
I don't even think that Russia have enough power to invade another country other than Ukraine. However, I am sure that Finland and Sweden are going to be two other backyards of the USA.
It is definitely socially engineered and perhaps after all of the isolation, more people are prone to staying silent against it.
It will be interesting to see what happens in Finland and Sweden, as they are both countries that have valued their independence in the past and I am unsure how they will react if controlled too much.
That's a serious and dramatic turn around from the Finnish people to go from 20% to 75% in such a short timeframe. Fear is dangerous thing sometimes and can force people into decisions they don't really want to make.
The last 25 years has seen a lot of "freedoms" rolled back in many countries and I feel that it is getting to a point of no return. All of this is about money and power in the hands of the few.
It certainly seems that way alright. Technological advances help to accelerate this too and natural and man-made disasters are sometimes used to mask the changes, the more cynical among us may say.
Your last para has it all. These are the taxpayers of those countries who will be paying the price to keep the treaty intact, NATO is not a free meal, billions of dollars will go from these countries to protection pool. This might lead to Inflation of the market in someway.
Frankly saying Finland should fear more from Sweden than Russia hehe, Finland has a treaty with Russia 'not to enter in NATO', it will be a sure shot violation otherwise.
The average person doesn't realize the cost yet - but they will, if they are paying attention.
Finland does fear Sweden ... in the hockey! :D
The World Championships are on at the moment too ;)
I have no respect for NATO and many other allied organizations. Yes, it is about high level thug rackets. They have their own agenda and it is not freedom/people friendly.
When people are in a state of fear, they will go along with anything that thinks it will save them.
Said the old white guy from the south.
:D
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STOPI hope, if Hive has taught us anything, it's that we are all people with similar hopes and dreams and goals. Politics is a ridiculous way to rule people.