Book I find fascinating is the signature in the cell - DNA and the evidence for intelligent design.
The case for Christ by Lee Stroebel an atheist set out to disprove Jesus.
I find it hard to believe the 12 disciples would all be martyrs after the death of Jesus, years later. When cult leaders die the cult usually ends. I have attached an article below if you chose to read. On a strictly scientific approach I would ask you to consider reading signature in the cell by Dr. Stephen C. Meyers
Is There Any Evidence that Jesus Existed?
Skeptics like Ellen Johnson [former President of American Atheists] cite the “lack of secular history” for Jesus as evidence that he didn’t exist.
Yet there is very little documentation for any person from the time of Christ. Most ancient historical documents have been destroyed through the centuries, by wars, fires, and pillaging, or simply through weathering and deterioration.
According to E. M. Blaiklock, who has catalogued most of the non-Christian writings of the Roman Empire, “practically nothing exists from the time of Christ”, even for great secular leaders such as Julius Caesar.¹ Yet no historian questions Caesar’s existence.
And since he wasn’t a great political or military leader, Darrell Bock notes, “It is amazing and significant that Jesus shows up at all in the sources we have.”²
So, who are these sources Bock mentions? Which early historians who wrote of Jesus did not have a Christian agenda? First of all, let’s look to Jesus’ enemies.
Jewish Historians: The Jews had the most to gain by denying Jesus’ existence. But they always regarded him as real. “Several Jewish writings refer to Jesus as a real person whom they opposed.³
Noted Jewish historian Flavius Josephus wrote of James, “the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ.”4 If Jesus wasn’t a real person why wouldn’t Josephus have said so?
In another somewhat controversial passage, Josephus speaks more extensively of Jesus.5
At this time there was a man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified, and he died. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Accordingly, he was thought to be the Messiah.”6
Although some of his words are in dispute, Josephus’ confirmation here of Jesus’ existence is widely accepted by scholars.7
Israeli scholar Shlomo Pines writes, “Even the most bitter opponents of Christianity never expressed any doubt as to Jesus having really lived.”8
World historian Will Durant notes that no Jew or Gentile from the first-century ever denied the existence of Jesus.9
Roman Historians: Early Roman historians wrote primarily of events and people important to their empire. Since Jesus wasn’t of immediate importance to the political or military affairs of Rome, very little Roman history referenced him. However, two important Roman historians, Tacitus and Suetonius, do acknowledge Jesus as a real person.
Tacitus (a.d. 55-120), the greatest early Roman historian, wrote that Christus (Greek for Christ) had lived during the reign of Tiberius and “suffered under Pontius Pilate, that Jesus’ teachings had already spread to Rome; and that Christians were considered criminals and tortured in a variety of ways, including crucifixion.”10
Suetonius (a.d. 69-130) wrote of “Chrestus” as an instigator. Most scholars believe this is a reference to Christ. Suetonius also wrote of Christians having been persecuted by Nero in a.d. 64.11
Roman Officials: Christians were considered enemies of Rome because of their worship of Jesus as Lord rather than Caesar. The following Roman government officials, including two Caesars, wrote letters from that perspective, mentioning Jesus and early Christian origins.12
Pliny the Younger was an imperial magistrate under Emperor Trajan. In a.d. 112, Pliny wrote to Trajan of his attempts to force Christians to renounce Christ, whom they “worshiped as a god.”
Emperor Trajan (a.d. 56-117) wrote letters mentioning Jesus and early Christian origins.
Emperor Hadrian (a.d. 76-136) wrote about Christians as followers of Jesus.
Pagan Sources: Several early pagan writers briefly mention Jesus or Christians prior to the end of the second century. These include Thallus, Phlegon, Mara Bar-Serapion and Lucian of Samosate.13 Thallus’ remarks about Jesus were written in a.d. 52, about twenty years after Christ.
In total, nine early non-Christian secular writers mention Jesus as a real person within 150 years of his death. Interestingly, that is the same number of secular writers who mention Tiberius Caesar, the Roman emperor during Jesus’ time. If we were to consider Christian and non-Christian sources, there are forty-two who mention Jesus, compared to just ten for Tiberius.14
Historical Facts about Jesus:
These early non-Christian sources provide the following facts about Jesus Christ:
Jesus was from Nazareth.
Jesus lived a wise and virtuous life.
Jesus was crucified in Judea under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius Caesar at Passover time, being considered the Jewish king.
Jesus was believed by his disciples to have died and risen from the dead three days later.
Jesus’ enemies acknowledged that he performed unusual feats.
Jesus’ disciples multiplied rapidly, spreading as far as Rome.
Jesus’ disciples lived moral lives and worshiped Christ as God.
This general outline of Jesus’ life agrees perfectly with the New Testament.15
Gary Habarmas notes, “In total, about one-third of these non-Christian sources date from the first century; a majority originate no later than the mid-second century.”16 According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, ”These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus.”17
The preceding article was excerpted from Was Jesus A Real Person?
¹Quoted in Josh McDowell and Bill Wilson, Evidence for the Historical Jesus (Eugene, OR: Harvest House, 1993), 23.
²Darrell L. Bock, Studying the Historical Jesus (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 2002), 46.
³D. James Kennedy, Skeptics Answered (Sisters, OR: Multnomah, 1997), 76.
4Flavius Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews (Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel, 1966), 423. The quote is from book 20 of the Antiquities.
5Ibid., 379. Quotation is from the Arabic translation of Josephus’ words about Jesus because some scholars believe the Christian version, which affirmed Jesus’ resurrection as historical, was altered. However, the Arabic translation cited here was not under the control of Christians and so alterations by them would have been virtually impossible.
6Bock, 57.
7McDowell and Wilson, 42-43.
8Ibid., 44.
9Will Durant, “Caesar and Christ,” vol. 3 of The Story of Civilization (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1972), 555.
10Quoted in Durant, 281. The quote is from Annals 15:44.
11McDowell and Wilson, 49-50.
12Gary R. Habermas, “Was Jesus Real,” InterVarsity.org, August 8, 2008, http://www.intervarsity.org/studentsoul/item/was-jesus-real.
13Ibid.
14Gary R. Habermas and Michael R. Licona, The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus (Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel, 2004), 127.
15Norman Geisler and Peter Bocchino, Unshakable Foundations (Grand Rapids, MI: Bethany House, 2001), 269.
16Habermas, “Was Jesus Real”.
17Quoted in Josh McDowell, Evidence That Demands a Verdict, vol. 1(Nashville: Nelson, 1979), 87.
@iowabuckd more on the 12. These became the 12 most wanted men on earth after the death of Jesus It didn't take the Romans long to catch most of them and their death was very much public and cruel Kinda like in the movie Braveheart all they had to do was admit that Jesus was fake which none did. John managed to escape the Romans untill he was like 85years old and wrote the Book of John which just happens to be the most recent book in the Bible and my fav. If Jesus was a great hoaks and it was all just made up stories REASON would step in and you'd admit to it but he didn't and stood firm it the faith ( gap)
Secular history/REAL evidence are all that matters because it can be checked and verified by EVERYONE as being true or false, real or fictional. NO FAITH IN AUTHORITIES OR OLD BOOKS REQUIRED.
However, religious versions of history will ALWAYS have a built-in bias and skewed perspective that starts with their pre-determined conclusions that they then try to force any and all evidence (or even NO evidence) to conform to those presuppositions.
But reasonable people know to FIRST seek and study the actual evidence with as little bias as possible and that will lead them to the most honest conclusions humanly possible.
If DNA is so important to your argument for intelligent design, then why was it NEVER even mentioned in the bible by "Jesus" or anyone else?
DNA is the evidence that proves intelligent design. Molecular DNA would be a foreign concept in that time period. Just like the technology we are using today would be to someone 100 years ago. I would argue you it was mentioned in the Bible 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. So there it is pretty amazing something written 1000’s of years ago is relevant today. God commands us to love others so on that note I am thankful for the this meaningful dialogue on different perspectives.
I don't believe in perfunctory love. In other words, are YOU really loving me or are you loving people like me because you fear punishment or expect rewards from "god" if you do or don't love non-believers like me. By the way, the bible says some insanely cruel shit (ya know fire and brimstone/eternal hell/etc.) about people like me so I do not value the words of the "god" of the bible because it has to be one of the worst two-faced fictional characters ever invented by some disgusting ancient humans.
My interactions tonight were with you not people like you as you say. I Don’t fear punishment or expect rewards not sure why you would think that. I believe in Agape love, Agape is a sacrificial love that voluntarily suffers inconvenience, discomfort, and even death for the benefit of another without expecting anything in return. The Bible is harsh in many parts, humans are slow learners, the expectations are laid out for all and we all have a choice (free will). I am not here to convert you, you have your mind up. I was defending my position and countering your continual attacks on my belief with the catchy postings you located and posted. Good day to you, it is my bedtime
No worries, please understand that I'm really only attacking or questioning ideas or stories that I find to be cruel, stupid or simply contradictory. I hope you don't feel like I was attacking you personally. (sorry if I came across that way, I'm not perfect and I'm working on that)
I know how uncomfortable it feels when someone questions your closely held religious beliefs (I was raised in a highly religious environment) but especially if your religious identity is also your main self-identity.
I do respect your right to believe anything you feel is best for you to believe for your life. Thank you for the civil conversations. :)