A couple days ago in Indonesia, police raided
some salons, detaining transwomen.
some salons, detaining transwomen.
Police cut their hair, made then wear male clothes and making them attend "Morailty Classes."
"BANDA ACEH, Indonesia: Indonesian police forcibly cut the hair of a group of transgender women and made them wear male clothing, authorities said on Monday (Jan 29), amid a crackdown on the LGBT community in the world's biggest Muslim-majority nation.
The incident happened after police raided several beauty salons in conservative Aceh province on Sunday and rounded up a dozen transgender employees over claims they had teased a group of boys."
I'm sure that it's not a huge shock for anybody that me, a transwoman in the middle of the USA, is not a fan of what's occurring in Aceh. Obviously I believe that LGBT+ members have to right to decide what is best for their own lives. You can even read my really old Introduction Post with some of my background if you'd like a little on an idea. Or if you're really not sure...there was THIS POST on the battle for LGBT protections in Springfield, Missouri, USA.
With all of this said...I can absolutely voice how wrong I think these actions are, get into details as to why...just like those who completely disagree with my point of view. We both believe we are 'right' in the matter....and I really don't expect to magically change their mind by writing a post.
HOWEVER....
I also believe in things like
- Non-Aggression
- People should be able to voice their opinion without fear of retribution from other Steemians
- and that here on Steemit, only flagging things that fall under my subjective definition of abuse
- I.E. I don't flag posts simply because I disagree with them. But I DO consider relentless personal attacks and threats to be abuse.
My Concern...here on Steemit
For a while now I've been working to organize, build and provide visibility for the LGBT+ community on here...and things are growing and coming together as I launch different pieces each week. We've also had a large number of people who have joined Steemit from Indonesia and Aceh. Personally, I want to be able to see both communities grow and successfully find their places in our "on-line society."
But with this latest news story, which had been making headlines across the world, I'm a little concerned with what can (and to slight degree, is) happen when these two communities come into contact with each other. On the one hand, I want both sides to be free to post about their opinions without fear of being flagged. On the other hand, I don't want to see threats thrown around such as the "destruction of an entire group of people."
However, I'm assume that not every single person in Aceh or Indonesia agree's with whats happening there and could have a problem when someone from across the world lumps them all together as 'being evil.' I have no doubt that many of us here in America would be appalled if somebody started labeling us all as being members of the Ku Klux Klan extremist group. Now, yes I know it's a bit different when there is government backing involved...which can make what some of us see as 'extremists' more at ease to loudly communicate their message. However, I still feel the general point here holds.
I want there to be some common understanding between these groups...at least enough to "live and let live" in some fashion.
I've personally found this to be a little bit of a tricky situation when mixing the "anarcho-libertarian-whatever" ideals the Steemit community tries to adhere to...with a a view based in rather conservative religion. As usual...I'm not really here to tell YOU what to do, but rather what I expect to do.
Things you can Expect...
Again...I am NOT here to tell you what do to...that is up to YOU! BUT...I can also choose to do what I want to do...and having a slightly higher stake in Steemit, I feel it also carries certain responsibilities. Even though I've been doing some of the LGBT+ organizing on here, I am by no means the sole voice for the entire group. I speak for me...I choose for me...and I'll give my opinions to advice the best I can and let them make their decisions.
Flagging is NOT something I enjoy doing...so I have a very good reason to use one or more. Yes, there is some subjectivity involved in defining what is abuse and what is a dissenting opinion...however, there are MANY things that are clearly over the line for me. On the flip of this, I don't exactly enjoy using my upvotes solely to Off-set flags. Yes there are times that I do when I see somebody receiving them for a very bad reason. (and yes..this to is admittedly subjective.)
So..I wanted to give both the LGBT and the Indonesian communities an idea of what they might expect from me. It's worth repeating here that I truly want BOTH groups to be able to exist here while maintaining the principles I listed above.
What the LGBT community can expect from me?
- I am in no way going to stop you from posting what you want...how you want. But you must also accept with this that certain things can have consequences.
- I won't upvote posts that are inflammatory nor attempt to offset flags. Generally it's easy for me to see when something could be taken by the opposing group as "being over the line" in their eyes. Even though I may not agree with them, it's within the principles listed above for them to flag things they find subjectively to be abuse.
- I will NOT flag posts simply because I disagree with their opinion, view point, etc. This is better served via actual conversation if I wish to debate.
- I very well MAY flag things that fall under my definition of abuse.
What the Indonesian community can expect from me?
- I am in no way going to stop you from posting what you want...how you want
- I won't upvote posts that are inflammatory nor attempt to offset flags. Generally it's easy for me to see when something could be taken by the opposing group as "being over the line" in their eyes. Even though I may not agree with them, it's within the principles listed above for them to flag things they find subjectively to be abuse.
- I will NOT flag posts simply because I disagree with their opinion, view point, etc. This is better served via actual conversation if I wish to debate.
- I very well MAY flag things that fall under my definition of abuse.
Yes...I know I have the same thing listed for both groups...but it makes sense doesn't it? It's true my time, energy and votes is more spent with the LGBT+ community (and others I'm a part of)...but that's only natural. I expect the same from those who have acquired some "responsibility" from holding some Steem Power.
All I ask is that we look for a way that BOTH communities are able to exist on here without fear of a giant Flag War!
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Cutting Hair
As I am in the forefront on this lately I will add my voice to this. I posted a small rebuttal post to some of the hateful posts tagged LGBT. Note I did not call anyone out, I did not @ anyone I gave my opinion about the government and police of that town only, so as not to blanket everyone in my statement. I did not down vote or comment on any post not LGBT labeled and hateful.
That is, in my view 100% in keeping with live and let live. Totally in line with the non-aggreshion principal and anarchic theory, I am not religious so that played no role.
When my post was attacked I responded by asking for help up voting that's it not retaliation. I also was attacked on several of my regular post bearing no inflamitory or derogatory speech they where just post about me, after that I again reached out for support but I did not ask nor did I down vote anyone that's a matter of record anyone can see.
I have been saying coexist from the beginning and asking only for solidarity and for them to not bait by using our tags, as I have shown the respect of not using their tags. @sykochica I am totally on this same wave length as I believe my actions have shown.
I did @ someone. Which is not to say that anyone else should have done so; just to say that in my experience, thugs only respect your ability to defend yourself. If they are willing to commit violence, they will do so whether or not I'm sitting around holding hands singing "Kumbaya". And at that point, experience has also taught me that intent is 90% of victory in combat. If someone wants to forcibly cut my hair, and I want to cut their throat, I have a far greater chance of survival than they do. I don't have a dimmer switch. It's on or off. I'd rather we all leave each other alone as the default position, but if I'm forced into a conflict, I can usually guarantee I'm willing to go farther than my enemies. Sure, this has made me a pariah in the LGBT community, who only want me around when they need someone to take bullets for them, but the haters out there better have no fucking doubt that I've taken bullets for them.
I think by now you understand that I am the same way just a bit longer in the tooth and military trained. I don't dim nor do I back down and don't for a second think I was calling you out in my post. I was not, I got your back regardless of your play 100%
Again the non-aggression principal is not about no violence, when shots are fired you best believe i clap back loud.
I was purposefully doing what i did to show our strength, my post was inflammatory I don't back away from that one bit, but it was posted on my tags, my front yard, my property, not one tag was on there "turf" the point of the endeavor was to show that if you attack me on my lawn when i've caused you no harm you the attacker are wrong. I expected support and received it, now we move forward. Shots fired, gloves off. @ancapbarbie as you put it, we are already at war.
Agreed. I am never seeking to change someone, or even change their mind, because by the time we are school-age we are pretty much set in our ways. I didn't take your comment as directed at me in any way, I just wanted to make it clear that it was me, so any retaliation for it is at least directed at me and deflected from those who weren't responsible for it. I'm perfectly willing to be the attack dog, if it's necessary.
You raise a good point, perhaps THE point: Why don't they just stop using the #LGBT tag? I for one wouldn't have seen any of those posts, or gotten involved in this. It's a first-world problem, of course. We have the luxury to care about our online blogs. LGBT people in the real world are disowned, abused, harassed, tortured, raped, murdered ... at rates that would alarm polite society if it was almost any other demographic. That's what concerns me. That's why I fight. Because not everyone can, or will, and I hope to change the world so they don't have to.
I was trained by the military but was not in the military. I got a 1470 on my SAT and a 99 on the ASVAB in 1990, but every single recruiter who came to my house with their mouths foaming said (one of them verbatim), "We don't take your kind."
So I've fought for my country, for the principles it claims to uphold, often directly opposed by this country's governments.
So we are clear I take zero pride in the fact that i served, it was torture on every level for me, i try to make up for the fact that i took part in such awfulness daily. It is still true that i was trained there, and it mstters in how i present myself, it helps people understand my mentality i suppose, but i have no pride in the experiance. I survived it, thats all.
I think we are eye to eye on our approach and our goals. 100% WTF right? first world problem or not but stop using the tag and solve all the problems, you shit in my yard then burn my house down for yelling at you for shitting in my yard and im the asshole? People be backwards as fuck sometimes.
It breaks my heart to see how much discrimination against the LGBT+ community still exists in so many countries and I hope this platform helps spread awareness and support for those who are suffering. But I totally agree that a flag war is not the answer. I really appreciate your diplomacy in this. It is important that our voices are heard loud and clear and that we stand up for the oppressed but it’s just as important that we do it in a tactful, respectful way that gains the respect of others and allows those of differing opinions to really hear what we have to say.
I agree with your assessment here, even if we don’t agree with someone doesn’t mean we should flag them. I read a story on Steemit a couple days ago about this situation in Aceh and all the comments were in support of it. At first I was incredulous and a little upset by people being okay with strangers being forced to change in such a way, but then I read their comments again and it seemed they thought the actions of the police were good for the transwomen and the community together. It’s a tricky situation and one I’m not remotely prepared to discuss so I let it alone and decided not to dwell on the negative.
Terima kasih @sykochica atas infonya.semoga saya @rahmadzaini dapat belajar banyak dari anda .trims
I am not surprised because I know that in such conservative areas like Aceh, it will take a very long time to change the head of governments and also people’s minds.
I am sad to see this!!
Wow, that is pretty awful stuff happening in Aceh. I can't imagine going through that. You are a good soul and that fact that you are explaining what people can expect from you is pretty telling about who you are. I like what you are doing here and it will hopefully empower a lot of people to find their voice.
Yea...it definitely was shocking for me, to say the least. My 'reality tunnel' is so vastly different it really is hard to even imagine being in the general norms there.
I had to think on how I wanted to even approach this for a couple days, even having to just talk it all out with @scaredycatguide last night. But this is the root of what came out of that and I'm rather comfortable with what I wrote here. :)
well I'm glad you posted this.
Thank you! :D
People should be who they want to be with no threats or intimidation.
I think it is really important to segregate individuals fro their country as long as they are not spouting state dictated propaganda. Those poor girls who's hair they shaved off are Indonesian as well as the aggressors. Here in the U.S we have our own conversion camps and the climate is changing to the worse here to since the Orange leader took over office. We are best served by taking everyone on an individual basis. That being said I am not sure how downvoting works here yet or if it is the same as flagging. I do not think a post should be banned from sight but I would think it prudent to have some system where downvotes would have some sort of influence be it a sicker on the bottom showing how often it was disliked just so there is a visual cue for the author showing him/her that people oppose what has been said. In the end commenting on such posts and discussing the subject in their comment section is a good means of debating and also taking a stand .
Hahahaha! Sorry..that really did make me laugh! (I'm not exactly a fan either)
While some segregation my not be ideal in the end, we do somewhat have that already simply because of the language barrier (unless we choose to use a translator or happen to know both languages.) Personally I don't really have a desire be be getting up 'in their business'...having better things to do. BUT...this specific headline seemed to bring more contact between the two groups (with both using the indonesia and lgbt tags). Though it very well may be a short lived thing on here. I at least wanted to put my stance out there...ideally mitigating what I can.
And yes..flags are the same as downvotes here. When you flag somebody, it can reduce their payout, their reputation and if the flag has enough weight behind it, same grey out and 'hide' a post (you'd have to click a button or two to have it display.)
This is perfectly put and ideally is something we can all agree on:
Im Indonesian and this is so wrong. My oldest son has long hair (shoulder length) and he doesnt want to cut his hair. He is a boy that dresses like a boy, play soccer and play with toys that are meant for boys. So if someone would just chop off his hair because that person believes boys should have short hair, i would be very pissed. I live in the Netherlands and even here, many Dutch people believe boys should have short hair. But forcing someone to dress as they think they should is really wrong in my eyes.
I have yet to meet a person who enjoys being told what they can, or cannot, do. It boggles my mind how so many people are unable to grasp the simple concept of: "LIVE, AND LET LIVE."
Yes, I 100% agree!
How sick do you have to be in the head to forcibly cut someone's hair and force them to wear the wrong gender's clothes? Inhuman filth. This is torture.
@sykochica Thank you for encouraging the dialogue in a very diplomatic way. There are some very emotionally charged comments in response to this post from both sides of what’s happening. Of course reading your post and then reading peoples reactions has stirred things up in me as well.
I was only meaning to comment here… but it’s turned into a full post which can be read here: "How do we win this battle?"
It is baffling how much discrimination still exists in our world today.
I sincerely hope that the steemit community would be a safe haven for all and that all forms of humanity can find room for expression here on steemit.
Kudos to @sykochica for taking time out to create the awareness and develop support lgbt communities.
OMG... Whats happening here ? Really impressive
There have been several posts recently celebrating the "eradication of LGBT" people in Aceh, Indonesia. I flagged four such posts, but simply ignored the ones who mentioned it or even advocated the religious "moral" view that they would somehow perceive differently if you replaced every instance of "LGBT" with "Muslim" in their posts. One of those guys responded by flagging two of my posts in retaliation.
I'm going to make this an issue, because it is. We don't have to like each other or even respect each other's beliefs to peacefully co-exist. This isn't just threats of violence on Steemit. This is actual violence in the real world. The folks in Aceh would have every reason to cry foul if the US Marines showed up to "liberate" them. And for the exact same reasons.
You can choose with whom you interact, or not. You have no right to deny someone else the freedom you take for granted.
eeewwww.. What's up
awh, :x
Sucks to find out about stuff like this sometimes, but not surprising the way that people normally treat each other all the time. People know no bounds. Everyday there is always another tragic thing that someone else has done, Glad they are hopefully getting better now. Have a great rest of your day/Evening.
@sykochica
Keep making Excellent Content, and Steem-on!
Atrocious I think is the word, followed by unbelievable. I would go as far as saying that type of behavior is rape.
I don't know what one little fish from Steemit can do about it other than encourage any and all that read this comment to pray for them because prayer changes things.
Nyan bereh that lagenyan dipelaku mangat gadeh penyaket slam kenal @khalil380 semoga bisa saling membantu
Can you remove your post?
No, I don't see a single thing in this post that is abuse to anybody else, in any way. I clearly state a very small portion of my opinion and then followed by a desire for both groups to exist here on Steemit in peace. I am free to post what I see fit, especially when done so in a more than respectful matter to both sides, and see any reason that I should take down my post.
What I would suggest is that you make your own post laying out your own opinions on the matter. Then we are all free to read it if we choose to, who knows...maybe even upvote.
Why?
What has happened there is absolutely appalling! And of course we shouldn't lump everybody that happens to live in a particular country because of the actions of it's government. There are all kinds of backwards people and it's important to speak out against them as loudly as possible, but it's also important to empower or just support everybody who is there on the ground and is against this type of barbarism.
my heart is full of emotions and i want to cry loud and loud when i heard such type of things like discrimination and detaining..
and feel very sorry that is this really exist now??
how sick do you have force you male body to become a woman, even animal not do that
Animals also don't shoot at each other...it's really not a sensible argument.
come on....maybe you will understand with this phrase "the mirror never lies"
someday u will understand my sister
Mirrors have no meaning other than the meaning we assign to them, so a mirror will lie as much as its user lets it. For example, the when I look in the mirror I see an ugliness that others don't. So, haven't I caused the mirror to "lie?"
even you just admit that the guilty is the user not the mirror, so... mirror still not lies
Sure, but you've missed the point. The user can easily cause the mirror to lie to the user. No inanimate object can lie. Objects are meaningless other than the meaning we assign them.
The point being, you cannot change a person by telling them the "mirror never lies."
Many animals change sex over their lifetimes: Here, Here, Here (from 1982 for fuck's sake), and Here. I could share a thousand more, but that should be enough to rationally invalidate your claim.
Dear punk barbie, btw i like ur name combination PUNK + BARBIE. Maybe u have to read very very carefully that articel, hemaprodite not same with trangender, hemaprodite change by nature because some conditions, come on....., i think now u wanna force them like that animal....
Even if that is true, so? It is their choice, not yours. You are the ones using force. Even animals do not do that.
im not force anybody, im talking abt reality, they themselves are forcing
They are not forcing you though. That is the crucial difference. Leave people alone. Not everyone believes what I believe either, and that is okay. I have no desire to force my beliefs upon you or anyone else.
Trans folks have had respectable roles in many societies since the days of hunting and gathering. Moreover, how many genders a culture has and what they correspond to is neither fixed nor universal. In other words, it is ancient, natural, and normal just like Asperger's or balding.
Moral criticism of trans people stems almost entirely from cultures in which the religious majority comes from an Abrahamic faith. This is ironic as none of their primary sacred texts make a moral claim regarding trans people.
Also, you have presumed that all trans people either have had or want surgery to change their bodies. This is not the case.
Keeping in mind that I approach culture and mores from an anthropological perspective, I'm glad to chat more if you like.
As far as we can tell, gender is uniquely human. Animals have sexes, but too little self-awareness to have a gender identity.
Also, we don't see animals dieting or getting married either, but that isn't a basis for calling dieting or marriage immoral.
I'm not surprised at all that this is happening. But doesn't make me any less sick. Keep up the amazing work @sykochica!
Upvoted ☝ Have a great day!
this happens in our place 😂😂😂😂
Mereka yang terjaring dalam operasi bencong ini sudah kembali macho, dan mereka berterima kasih pada pihak-pihak karena telah membantu membina sehingga mereka bisa kembali pada hakikat lahiriah mereka. Operasi ini tak segirang dan sebahaya kata-kata. Jadi enjoy saja.
Nyan baroe bereh
@sykochica - you know so much about how Steemit works. If folks posting LGBT positive stuff have unwanted negativity, would muting people help, over time? That is, if there are anti-LBGT folks dropping in negativity or judgement, if they got muted by everyone in the main conversations, would those negative comments just go unseen after awhile? I think that's different than flagging - just keeping them out of conversations, without affecting their reputation as a whole.
Yes and no. It might reduce the frustration of the LGBT community on Steemit, but burying our heads in the sand doesn't mean the source of that frustration isn't occurring.
Why would they post using the #LGBT tag though? They WANT us to see it. They WANT our attention. Otherwise they could have their hateful little circle-jerk and we wouldn't even know it.
I think that's the point - they want your attention for whatever reason.
Oh my gosh @sykochica ! I had no idea this was happening in Indonesia. I literally cried when I saw that photo. It makes me so sad that people force any belief on anyone else. Thank you for making me aware, and I appreciate your stance on seeing both sides. You are very strong.
World is a cruel place, I believe we all should work together towards some better future.
FUCK LGBT, fuck pecinta lobang taik, fuck fuck fuck LGBT is creazy
Jadi Anda harus menyerang seseorang karena mereka gila? Orang-orang ini bukanlah ancaman bagi Anda, kecuali jika masalahnya benar-benar Anda tertarik pada mereka tapi Anda terlalu takut maskulinitas beracun di sekitar Anda untuk mengakuinya.
People have used that exact line of reasoning to subjugate other humans for millennia. History has not looked favorably on such reasoning.
"Fuck Geats. Geats are crazy"
"Fuck Shudras. Shudras are inhuman."
"Fuck Jews. Jews are crazy."
"Fuck slaves. Slaves are inhuman."
I might as well say, "Fuck green-eyed people. Green eyes are crazy!" It's lazy bigotry, it's ill-informed, and it's a poor, unsuccessful argument.
I could say, "Fuck Shannon. Bitch tried to stab me with a paring knife! She's crazy." but that doesn't lead to, "Fuck women. One tried to stab me with a paring knife! They are all crazy."