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RE: Are you Bashing the military? Do you think they are dumb, worthless, from poor families, and tricked into service?

in #life8 years ago

It's not my fear and ignorance. It's my experience in the 82nd Airborne. I served there, for four years. I never said they were all sociopaths, so you can stow that business right now. My view of soldiers is based entirely on my time in service and who I met there.

Your infographic shows that lower enlisted are more likely to have a high school diploma than the general population. That would be meaningful in some way if a high school education was indicative of being intelligent. It's not. One gets a high school diploma if one does what one is told. Government schools are little more than glorified indoctrination centers, so your conclusion that having one makes someone more intelligent doesn't follow. Let's continue:

The pentagon spends $107 billion dollars (1/5th of their budget) on recruiting and retaining the best talent. They have much higher standards than most people realize.

So the Defense Department spends more than $100 billion taken from people at gunpoint to recruit people that they will then pay with money taken from people at gunpoint. Whether or not this increases the quality of recruiting is irrelevant; this is an immoral end and should never be lauded.

Intelligence is not dependent on education. Intelligence is the ability to learn, not how much you know. Some of the smartest and wealthiest people do not have degrees (Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, etc.)

So then your infographic serves no purpose. Either degrees matter, and they're indicative of intelligence, or they don't. Can't have it both ways, chief.

The ASVAB is an initial screening test. Not the criteria which will determine selection. They prefer college educated soldiers, hence the college funds they set aside for recruits

The ASVAB tests general comprehension and reasoning in a number of fields. It is, at its core, no different than any intelligence aptitude test, albeit less rigorous and purpose-driven. That being said, 31 is exactly what it looks like: a 31% score. It's abysmally low, and yet, no more is required of people who want to comprise the bulk of the military's primary fighting force.

They sacrifice being away from their families, discomfort, danger, and seeing the horrors of what mankind can do.

Okay, and they deserve our sympathy for forsaking their families for a lie. Every service member who serves "to protect America and freedom" has been tricked by their government. The government does not protect freedom; indeed, it can't exist without infringing on the freedom of anyone. Ultimately, they all signed their names on a dotted line, just like I did, to serve the interest of the ruling political elite. They signed a contract that says not to question the order of their superiors. They agreed to take part in the single most violent enterprise in human history: war.

Your argument that nations have always existed (which is patently untrue, since the nation-state is a creation of the Peace of Westphalia) and that armies have always been necessary is a logical fallacy. It's an appeal to antiquity. Rather than lauding people for signing up to be cannon fodder or enable politicians to pursue whatever immoral ends they want, why not encourage people to find another way? Why not denounce the war machine and point out exactly what it is?

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@anarcho-andrei Let me address your points. But first, thank you for your service.

  • The graphic shows that even enlisted personnel have a greater education on average than the general populace. This is the counterpoint to speculation that soldiers are 'dumb' or have a 'low IQ'. As IQ is an antiquated measure, any metrics in this space would be irrelevant, as much as the original comment. Therefore I chose a verifiable metric which shows education level in comparison to the population. To refute my position, show me your verifiable and scientific metric which either supports the 'dumb' statement.
  • The pentagon spending is reflective of two points. First they spend a bucket of money on acquiring and retaining talent. Implied here is just like any other business or organization, you must spend money to acquire good talent. The amount of money is a quantifiable measure on the investment and has a loose relationship to the quality of what is being brought on board. This coupled with the fact the armed forces gets far more applicants than it has positions nowadays, it can be very selective. Which it is.
  • Your statement "$100 billion taken from people at gunpoint " is an exaggeration intended to gain favor and emotional rise from audiences. It is not factual. There are not military folks pointing guns taking $100 billion dollars from citizens. You are using creative license and attempting to insert it in a logical argument. Exaggeration is entertaining, but not relevant in a logical argument. I have a feeling you know this already, yet chose to pursue it anyways.
  • Intelligence is different than contextual knowledge. Intelligence is the measure of the "ability to learn" not what they know. A master blacksmith may not be very intelligent, but a true master at what they do know. A person who graduates has show competencies in the material presented, therefore certain levels of contextual knowledge. There is a difference, and both are relevant to this discussion.
  • When determining scoring, 31% is meaningless unless a baseline is understood. You obviously believe in this case they are following a tradition grade school grading where you have A's, B's, and so on and a 'C' is average. This is NOT the case with ASVAB. In fact, 50 is average. So you must adjust your scale. It is a math thing.
  • U.S. soldiers can question and even disobey orders if it is in violation of the uniform military code. They are now taught this in basic training and especially officers are drilled on this because they don't want issues to arise.
  • They do make an oath to serve their country and protect the Constitution. Doing so, largely means they follow orders. Yes, that is what a soldier is. That may very well mean they must go to war. Nothing is hidden. It is an informed VOLUNTARY decision. Can't ask for more than that.
  • I did not state "nations have always existed". What I stated was "There has always been conflict throughout human history. It is a woven tale where aggression has created empires and crushed those without the means to defend themselves. Those nations with militaries that can influence other nations, protect trade routes, and keep warfare at arm’s reach from their lands, also survive and thrive better. There is a value to maintaining an effective military, unless you have a guardian who is doing it for you." I stand by this, and challenge you to find serious fault with the statement (real historical examples, not your feelings on the matter).
  • You again misquoted me. I didn't state "armies have always been necessary". And if I did, it still is an appeal to antiquity, as I am not saying it is right by its nature. In fact I stated "Armies are a necessary function to protect the citizens of their nation." I will stand by this as a historical fact. The vast majority of nations which did not have a sufficient force were not successful. If you want to refute my point, show me the percentage of successful nations which did not have a military and present a statistical comparison against the years successful nations existed that did possess a military force.
  • Lastly, I think you can make your person points of "encourage people to find another way" and "denounce the war machine" without belittling the dedication, honor, decisions, bravery, and sacrifice of those who were before and followed. I assume you also exhibited those qualities and challenges when you were with the 82nd (and when they made you learn of the proud history of those who wore that patch before you).

Over $100 billion is taken from people at the point of a gun for recruiting efforts to find and hire people who will then be paid by money taken from people at the point of a gun. You're welcome to demonstrate how taxation is not backed by the threat of or actual use of violent force.

My mistake for misquoting you about nations always existing. That was my bad for misreading your statement, and I'll walk that one back. However, the entire tone of your statement is that in order to ensure the security of people, we need armies. Voluntary exchange and consensual interactions is far more preferable except to people who want to use force to harm others, so this is not the only solution, nor is it the preferred solution. There is no reason the world must operate in this fashion, and honoring people who engage in or support the most murderous enterprise in human history does nothing to advance us past that point. Why continue to honor people that carry out an endeavor that multiples human suffering, rather than pressing for a better solution?

The ASVAB works on a ranking basis, with different scores necessary for different professions. Those with greater general aptitudes (higher scores) qualify for more jobs. Those with lesser general aptitudes (lower scores) qualify for less jobs. Based on this understanding, the job with the lowest cut-off score is the one that qualifies the greatest number of people, meaning it requires the least skilled labor. In the same way that qualifying to flip burgers doesn't make you smart, qualifying for infantryman doesn't make you smart either. I'm even willing to concede your point that the majority of people in the Army aren't knuckledraggers (since I'm my own counterpoint in this case, as were a number of people in my unit), however having such a low threshold for people who are in the most morally responsible position breeds inequity. You know what commands really like? Privates that do what they're told, when they're told to do it, and how they're told to do it. Trust me; I learned from experience that no one in charge likes a private that actually takes initiative.

I'm also not going to honor the "sacrifices" that people impose on themselves. I don't expect, nor do I want, anyone to honor me because I imposed hardships on myself. It doesn't take courage or dedication to keep serving even when one realizes how awful the Army really is; it takes the threat of a dishonorable discharge that will make you unemployable to a large number of people. That encourages other people to do stupid things, like sacrifice time with their family, miss their children growing up, become a stress-addled mess, destroy their relationships, become heavy drinkers and smokers, and a host of other horrible end effects that I've witness first hand or been guilty of myself. If anything, I should be a cautionary tale, as should everyone else who serves.

That's nothing to say for the fact that serving in the military means serving the political ends of the people in charge. Orders that violate the UCMJ are more than likely immoral, but orders that do not violate the UCMJ are also possibly still immoral. I'd argue that serving as the enforcement arm of US foreign policy is immoral in and of itself, and I fully accept my responsibility for being part of that prior to realizing what a racket war is. Indoctrination is a hell of thing, I guess.

@anarcho-andrei

  • Taxation, just like any other agreement is backed by the threat of consequences. It could be financial, etc. If you don't pay your mortgage, they take your house. You made a deal. If you CHOOSE to be a U.S. Citizen (it is not free) then you agree to the terms and conditions of the laws, including taxation. This is true anywhere in the world and at a microcosm, even within households, sports franchises, etc. Consequences. By the way, the consequences for tax evasion is penalties, fines, and potentially imprisonment. Not death, pain, torture, or threat of death.
  • Thanks for walking back on the nations comment.
  • "voluntary exchange and consensual interactions is far more preferable" It is preferable, just not reasonable. We don't live in or have ever created a Utopian society. It is largely believed it is impossible based upon the current way large populations are wired (in the brain, that is).
  • We don't honor the travesties of war. We honor those who fight to keep it away from our doorstep. Significant force is a deterrent. Lots of history there too. Lack of a significant force is a welcome mat.
  • We agree ASVAB is a ranking tool. Now put yourself in the DoD shoes. You have 100 positions open and 400 ASVAB applicants who 'passed' the test. Do you take a random sample? No, you take the best. So, stating the 'passing' grade of 31 does not mean much. As you said it, it is a ranking tool.
  • Of course a direct commander want drones. This has always been the case, but that is where the checks and balances come into place. General Patton was infamous for his soldiers following the rules. But in combat he also wanted creativity, bravery, and tenacity. He knew the balance and value of both. He also trained his soldiers like nobody else, both for discipline as well as proficiency in winning any way they could. Generals do want initiative, when it serves them. With the kinds of asymmetric warfare we tend to fight now, that is what wins.
  • I will honor those who choose to sacrifice. Sacrifice without choice is just being in the way. Wrong place, wrong time. But the soldier who chooses to shield his buddies or an innocent civilian from shrapnel and is injured/killed. Yes, they have acted honorably. I won't tell you who to honor or why. I can only tell you how I assign that level of respect.
  • I don't know what you experienced, but I am willing to bet it was not rose gardens and finger painting. There is some ugly stuff out there. I am not by any means saying we haven't done wrong. I think politicians can be callous and self serving at times. They are people after all. But one think I know, really know, is I sleep much better at night knowing our military might is standing guard against all aggressors. There are places right now where civilians are being shelled, families killed or worse, water poisoned, and all basic freedoms stripped. Starving and without hope or much of a future. I don't have to worry about foreign militants dropping bombs on my home tonight. Much of that is due to our military power and the soldiers who won't let that happen. I am confident you were in that mindset at one point and you would likely use the very skills your are lambasting, if a foreign power invaded and threatened the people of America. Soldiers are a lot like cops. You don't want them around until something really bad happens. Then you expect them to show up, fully equipped and trained, to save and protect you. There is a cost. It is not pretty, but there is a cost.

Have you looked at the test recently? I am guessing (yes a guess) you have not.
It is designed where the Average score should be 50 and it tests on the following:

  • Armed Forces Qualification Test (AFQT) - Paragraph Comprehension, Word Knowledge, Mathematics Knowledge, and Arithmetic Reasoning.
  • Clerical (CL) – Word Knowledge, Paragraph Comprehension, Arithmetic Reasoning and Mathematics Knowledge.
  • Combat (CO) - Word Knowledge, Paragraph Comprehension, Auto & Shop and Mechanical Comprehension.
  • Electronics (EL) – General Science, Arithmetic Reasoning, Mathematics Knowledge and Electronic Information.
  • Field Artillery (FA) - Arithmetic Reasoning, Mathematics Knowledge and Mechanical Comprehension.
  • General Maintenance (GM) – General Science, Auto & Shop, Mathematics Knowledge and Electronics Information.
  • General Technical (GT) - Word Knowledge, Paragraph Comprehension, and Arithmetic Reasoning (AR).
  • Mechanical Maintenance (MM) – Auto & Shop, Mechanical Comprehension and Electronic Information.
  • Operators and Food (OF) - Word Knowledge, Paragraph Comprehension, Auto & Shop and Mechanical Comprehension.
  • Surveillance and Communications (SC) - Word Knowledge, Paragraph Comprehension, Arithmetic Reasoning, Auto & Shop and Mechanical Comprehension.
  • Skilled Technical (ST) - Word Knowledge, Paragraph Comprehension, General Science, Mechanical Comprehension and Mathematics Knowledge.

Granted it is no LSAT but it probably is not the same test you took either.
For example the math portion covers algebra, geometry, and quadratic equations.

Perhaps you should go take a practice test... https://asvabbootcamp.com/products/asvab-practice-tests-pack

That's the test I took. chief. It's a general intelligence aptitude test. Maybe you should try taking one and see how you fare.

Speaking of which, when did you serve?

@anarcho-andrei I did take one, many years ago, in high school. The test was far more simple. I am sure it did not have differential equations! But those were much different times. The military has changed from long ago. So have the soldiers.

They are much more sophisticated, intelligent, tech and business savvy nowadays. The ones I interact with can talk foreign politics, philosophy, history, psychology, technology, business, and still hit the center ring at a couple hundred yards. These aren't the grunts from a long time ago. DoD learned that an intelligent soldier was much more effective at achieving in-theater goals. They foster creativity, asymmetrical thinking, game theory, and adaptation. That was the major difference between the centralized control structures of WARSAW, Iraq, etc. and the decentralized operational freedom fostered in most western-nations military.