To take this argument to an extreme, being vegan isn't enough. While plants do not possess a consciousness we can relate to as animals, there's definitely evidence for "plant consciousness" and bio-communication. Only synthetic foods will be ethically in the clear.
I agree, there are certainly gradations of consciousness down the phylogenetic scale, and we can't quite cater for everything yet (eg bacteria) but we can probably do a lot better with respect to animal treatment than killing 100 billion of them a year (not including fish)
Sure, it'll be a good start.
Like you, I'll go back to my delicious lamb shanks :) Though I see no reason to believe synthetic food technology won't advance to a point where it can both taste better than meat and be healthier for humans.
Beyond meat! believe its partnered with CEO of Mcdonalds..guy trying to reverse what he did to the world..lol
nobody says consciousness is the only reason not to hurt animals tho .. to me having a nervous system and ability to feel pain seems more important
I know stepping on blades of grass does not feel the same to me as stepping on chipmunks .. so there's some sort of difference besides just consciousness
How we relate to them matters since we're the one feeding off of them ,, so if it feels different to rip up a squirrel than it does to rip up swiss chard, there's probably a reason for that and our instincts realize it
It could be that plants have a consciousness but their consciousness is in line with feeding energy to us, whereas animals have their own independent destiny
A fair distinction, of course, but largely a semantic one. That's why I edited in "plant consciousness" in quotes. For the purpose of this discussion, let's just define "consciousness" as some form of life with a nervous system of some kind that experiences pain and death.
Ok, helpful clarification, but still even experiencing pain wouldn't mean they're necessarily the same as animals, it wouldn't mean there can't be something else that differentiates the two
Is it proven that plants experience pain or it's a theory? All plants or there are certain ones? Same as animal pain, or a bit different but still in the genre of "pain"?
If I asked you whether you'd rather rip apart swiss chard or a squirrel right now, I feel like I know what you'd answer.
So I'm skeptical of the idea that "plant consciousness" means they're necessarily on the same ethical footing, because clearly there's "something" that makes the squirrel different to us. And I don't think our instincts are wrong and firing wildly.
That's why some people exclusively eat fruit. Eating fruit doesn't kill the plant.
So eating the plant's babies is more ethical?
Fair point! Fruits are meant to be eaten, though we rob the plant of its purpose by defecating in toilets instead of spreading seeds around, or simply removing the seeds before eating.
PS: Though going another extreme, some would argue - what about the microbiome that exists within the fruit?
The microbiome of the fruit would join with that of your gut unless you cook it. Surely some type of microbes will be killed in your gut but at this point I think we swing back around to synthetics if you're worried about that.
Because we can't avoid causing pain 100% doesn't mean we should stop trying avoiding causing pain. That's the mentality behind ahimsa diets.
We can avoid most pain with synthetic food. It could also be higher quality, taste better and be healthier for humans than plants and vegetables. There's been a lot of progress in that field in this decade. Still a ways off though.
I'm not sure there's such a thing as synthetic calories and I'm not sure this is possible. Lab grown meat is another thing. It is very much alive.
What if atoms and molecules have some sort of consciousness and humans discover it some day?
Then it would qualify as life.
Interesting point, Liberosist. This leads me to wonder, is it ethical to cut down old growth timber to build a house? Now what if we are not building a house but sending the log to the toothpick factory instead? Is floss more ethical than toothpick use? I'd better just install solar panels on my roof and use an electric water pick. Oops, better make sure those solar panels are not produced in a Communist police state. Ouch...big price difference! Ok, cut the darn tree down.
Are we afraid to die, that we're too much conscious of our food? lol
"That which enters into the mouth doesn't defile the man; but that which proceeds out of the mouth, this defiles the man." - Matthew 15:11
Mark 7:14-23: “Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, ‘Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside a man can make him unclean by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him unclean.’ After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. ‘Are you so dull?’ he asked. ‘Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.’(In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") He went on: ‘What comes out of a man is what makes him unclean.' For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man `unclean.’”
Deep down we humans continue to be beasts at least up to some degree. Many animals seek to survive at all costs, and in many cases, the big boss (stronger animal, etc) gets everything, including the female. We humans have a bigger brain, and all those primal instincts translate into more complex stuff such as "theft", "envy", etc, which are basically tools to bring us "to the top". Of course, many people are also downright psychopaths (murder just for fun, for example).
Jesus lived two thousand years ago, there's been enormous cultural and intellectual progress since then.
Some do not agree we have progressed as you claim. Intellectualism can be its own religion. Pride goeth before destruction.
how do you know he lived? how can you know, there wasn't some well paid writer, who wanted just to pay off his debt?
There's reasonable historical evidence for Jesus having lived. There's no evidence, however, for him having been a son of God etc.
I place my reasoning above not reasoning so in that sense I'm not a religious person but I know quite a lot about religion anyway. You seem to be choosing some verse that fits your belief.
look at this logic, those animals like tiger who eat only meat have sharp teeth like vampires and their stomach is made for only mead digestion, while those animals like goats have flat teeth and they only eat grass and other plants and do not have the stomach to digest meat, on the other hand humans have both type of teeth and can digest both vegetables and meat as well, which proves that humans can eat meat, on the plus side if you take a look at this scientifically then if you combine all the vegetables and eat it, they will not provide enough vitamins and other stuff which is necessary for your health, while you can get all the energies in a single meat meal and boost your health...
Both your arguments are flawed.
Rape is rampant in the animal kingdom because animal can rape and have strong instinct which most of the time override their "moral judgement".
Because we can eat meat, doesn't make it moral.
Someone telling you I love to do this doesn't make it moral either. e.i. I love to eat human flesh.
The second argument about nutrition is plain wrong.
Once again, homo sapiens have evolved past the need for meat.
My ancestors didn't work their way up the food chain for me to go and eat a couple of florets of broccoli and a few leaves of rocket!!
The species has evolved far from then, past the food chain. This argument is irrelevant.
yeah man, just kidding
Your argument is irrelevant. What has your perceived evolution got to do with a persons choice of food?
There is evidence about amazing and until recently unknown ways of communication between plants. They actually have something similar (even if much slower working) like a nerve system, but concerning a 'consciousness' there is no proof yet.
I've edited for it to read "plant consciousness" in quotes. It's definitely very different from consciousness as we know it.
Right, and on the other hand I agree with you, that plants have amazing skills (it is always difficult to find the right terms when talking about these organisms ...), indeed, which we still didn't know some years ago ...
That's what I say. And veggies usually think in a way, that animals are something more than human. They love animals more than their children....maybe I exaggerate a bit :D , but yeah. And btw, most of them, still eat fish, so that is funny too