Great questions @happyme. Thank you for joining and contributing to the discussion. I believe part of the answer to your question resides in knowing the heart of God for his creation. At the core of this is love. Each one of us desires to love and be loved. Without free will, it is impossible to have true love. So in order for us to truly choose on our own initiative to love or reject God, we need to have free will. When we have free will, we can choose to obey or disobey, love or reject.
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This is a good answer. However, it still seems to me that you have a choice to obey out of free will, or disobey and be punished. That is not really freedom. True freedom is to be respected either way.
Thanks. I'm not sure if you have children, but this became more clear to me after having my first child three years ago. When it comes to loving my children, the concepts of love, trust and obedience are closely tied together. Especially when they are young, like now, they don't know what's good for themselves. My son wants to play with scissors, but I tell him it's bad for him, and if he doesn't trust me and disobeys, he will either receive the consequences of hurting himself through playing with the scissors, or receive my discipline because I love him and don't want to see him hurt. That's a bit like our relationship with God.
Freedom isn't just about doing whatever you want, because there are consequences to everything. When we disobey God's command to love one another, our relationships become fractured, or when we disobey the law, and choose to drink and drive, we might crash the car and hurt others.
I know if my son rejected me and disowned me as his father, I would be really hurt, and as a result he would miss out on the best I intend for him. This is sort of similar to when we choose to reject God.
Hope this makes sense, and look forward to continuing the discussion throughout the series. :)
Thanks for the response. I understand what you are trying to convey, however, as a parent, I have learned that there is more than 1 way to achieve a desired outcome. For example, you gave the scenario of the scissors:
As a loving parent, we need to make sure we permit our children to experience life and learn at a rate that is appropriate to them. In the case of scissors, I don't see punishing a child for being curious as a smart alternative because that teaches them that they are stupid and not capable of making wise choices. We are now seeing the results of parents over-protecting their children. I suggest that a better alternative to punishment is diversion. Give your children scissors that are appropriate for their age instead. Or simply put the dangerous scissors away where the child can't reach it. Or supervise the use of the scissors. No need for punishment! Might is right is not smart parenting. It is a cop-out and an attempt at taking a short-cut that often creates other problems.
Let me make it perfectly clear that there is no one size fits all as far as a parenting guide goes. What works for one child may backfire for another, so that is why children don't come with an owner's manual. I am making generalizations above and want to be clear that each child has different needs and has to be treated as an individual. I was very fortunate that I rarely (that I can remember) had to resort to punishing my children. There was one time where I punished my daughter (and I resent having done that to this day because I'm sure if I tried harder I could have found a better solution). I can't think of any other instance where I punished either of my children, and guess what? They are both mature and healthy adults that have learned respect and compassion. They are not wild and crazy out-of control people.
So speaking from real-life personal experience, I can tell you that human beings have the capacity to learn without being punished. Yes, there are some who's minds are not functioning the same as the average and those will require special handling, but generally, children want to please their parents because they want to earn their love. To be fair, parents must also earn the love of their children. It is not a right. God, as well, has no right to demand love. It just doesn't work that way; love is not something that can be forced! EVERYONE must earn love and respect.
That's very good parenting advice. I agree diversion techniques is the best way to go. I hardly ever punish my son either. When I discipline, it's usually not allowing him to play with a favorite toy or something similar. You sound like a great parent. That's a good point in the example of scissors. However, in my opinion, in any kind of environment, whether in the home, school, workplace or society, rules and laws, having appropriate boundaries are always necessary.
I totally agree with you that love is not a right and needs to be earned. God never demands love or forces anyone to love him. That's why he gives that free will, and much of the suffering in this world are direct consequences of us choosing not to follow God's ways. God also allows us to reject him, but we miss out on the best he intends for us.
Final point I would like to make is that God has already earned our love by creating amazing beauty in the world and universe, and the ultimate love is that he was willing to come into his own creation to die in our place. That's what I believe anyway, and we can discuss more if you have questions/doubts on the evidence around the crucifiction of Jesus and historicity around Jesus' life etc. But we'll get around to it in future videos.
Thanks again for this discussion. It's been very interesting to hear your views, and I look forward to further discussions. :)
Thanks @nextgen622. You seem like a very rational and understanding person. Rules and boundaries are absolutely necessary. It is how we handle those who break the rules that shows who we are.
There are many people who try very hard to follow God's ways, yet are still lumped in with those who do not and in some instances suffer more than those who reject God's ways. This is not right. Infants who are still innocent are also suffering through no fault of their own. Generations of people should not pay for something done by others.
Love is not something that once earned cannot be revoked. Love is like a living thing. It requires constant feeding and nurturing. At least that is how I define love. Would you still love your parents if they brought you into a wonderful world and then deliberately abandoned you in the middle of the jungle when you were just 8 years old?
I'm good with waiting for the appropriate video to discuss this further. I'm a seeker of the truth and always open to compelling evidence.
Thanks for the opportunity to have this discussion.
Thanks @happyme. Some really good points you made, especially about love, which I totally agree with.
I've just put up episode 2 of the series here. Hope you could check it out, and let's continue the conversation there. :)