I really like the concept, and I do think it ends too quickly. It feels as though you had more to say.
What software did you use? I've learned that the best software is the kind that lets you play it as close to how you want it to sound, so then there's less fiddling afterwards. Automation and expression are hugely important, and mixing too. :)
Hi, @morodiene, thank you! I used Cubase and EastWest Gold symphonic libraries and choirs. I don't actually have a MIDI controller right now, so this was all drawn with the mouse. A controller is next on the list, though! I have only just super begun my experience in mixing music, so need lots of practice there. And when I put this together I just didn't tweak the expression of the instruments at all. I think it would benefit GREATLY from some tweaks in that area, and a good mix job.
I'm glad you liked the concept :) There is actually about 45 more seconds of this piece that is mostly just drum and bass (unfinished), and this 49 second version actually has drum and bass beneath it, too, but I think it sounds cheesy so didn't share ;) Thank you for your comment and the constructive feedback! :)
EW stuff is great once you learn how to use them. Symphonic Choirs is especially finicky. They've just come out with Hollywood Choir which I'm going to try out on their Composer Cloud subscription plan - not paying $600 for something I'm not sure is a huge improvement on SC.
I have a few digital pianos that I've used as controllers, but if you don't need a piano feel, I highly recommend the Nektar Impact LX88+. I just purchased one for under $300 and so far have only used it for live playing, I plan to use it for symphonic software instruments. I think it will do really well and I prefer the feel of a non-piano action for playing in strings and brass.
I've heard some great symphonic stuff done with just clicking in with a mouse. You just have to go into the expression maps and draw in the swells and other CC's. So maybe play around with your existing work here. Do not copy and paste from one track to the next though! Make each slightly different as it would be for different instruments. Also be sure to use panning(left and right) and reverb (front and back) to physically place the different instruments where they would be in an actual orchestra.
Let me know if you have any questions - I'm happy to help!
Hi, @morodiene, wow that Nektar controller looks really impressive! I was looking at a Novation Impulse 49. Do you have any experience with this controller or other Novation controllers? Why do you prefer a non-piano action for strings and brass? I've done a decent amount of MIDI work with the mouse, and almost none with a controller. I had always assumed that something like weighted/semi-weighted keybed would be best for picking up on subtle expression, etc. Would you disagree?
The bulk of my MIDI experience is pretty much confined to EW stuff. I have a few other plug-ins but the EW are my go to and what I've spent the most time becoming familiar with. How is it that you find the choirs to be particularly finicky? I have zero experience really configuring the sounds within the plug-in, and have generally only messed with velocity expression and finding the right places to start/end notes so that things sound organized. I have found that the choirs have a really slow attack.
I totally hear you about Composer Cloud and I think the cost of this kind of software is extremely prohibitive to the novice. I have found the same to be true for mixing and mastering plug-ins. With mixing and mastering plug-ins it seems like you can accomplish some decent stuff using freeware, but if you want a realistic orchestra sound you really do seem to need better software than stock plug-ins. I started out using free soundfonts in Fruity Loops and my lord, the difference in realism between most of those and the EW stuff is striking.
On reverb, I am still verrry new to the effective use of reverb haha. I have basically no idea how to position things from front to back but I understand that it is possible. I guess my very basic guideline is "more reverb=farther away, less=closer", but that's really the extent of any technical knowledge on the subject :D This particular post has no reverb but that reverb which was active in the EW plug-in itself. I have years of learning ahead of me in the mixing department, without a doubt :)
Here are my thoughts on copying and pasting - I LOVE it. It speeds up my workflow immensely. What I tend to do is craft a phrase or motive or what have you in a particular instrument and then copy it into new instruments for modification. Sometimes I will simply take a phrase and move it from a violin in the 4th register to a voila in the 3rd, and maybe a cello in the 1st or 2nd to create a very unified string section. It really depends on what I'm going for. Sometimes I will modify the melody to create a bit of counterpoint within that string section. Sometimes I will avoid copy/paste all together, especially as a way to generate new musical ideas, but when I do use it I always use it as a way to recreate a baseline idea in multiple instruments, which I will then go in and specifically modify to build depth and variation in the music.
I look forward to your input on any future orchestral type posts that I make. I've got several projects that are all mouse-made and I would definitely appreciate an experienced ear's opinion. I don't really know anyone IRL who is doing this kind of stuff! But I have made use of the velocity expression in most of them and they are better in quality than this particular post here.
I very much appreciate your sharing your insight and experience with me, @morodiene. :) And I really look forward to hearing more of the music that you and @negativer create! Thank you very much, ma'am! :)
Well, regarding copy/paste: it's great for composing, but not for production. I separate the two so I compose in Finale, and then I play that into my DAW, where I do not copy and paste once in the DAW or you end up with a very unnatural sounding orchestra.
Here's an idea of what I was able to do with EW Symphonic Choirs. Keep in mind that I had to overdubb all the parts with my own singing 3-4 times per part to get it to be legato and have clear words:
There's a great community of composers using virtual instruments called vi-control.net. Definitely worth joining, but there are some big name professionals on there like Hans Zimmer, so best to do more reading and listening before posting. ;)
This, unfortunately, isn't the best medium to talk, but I'm on The Writer's Block on Discord if you want to chat :)
:O:O:O WOW! Wow wow wow. Do you have an education or training in music? This is composition and execution beyond my ability. Haha! May I ask how long you've been practicing?
I'll check out the vi-control community and look into Finale, and I'll look for you on Discord. Thanks for sharing that piece! It's not just impressive from an analytical perspective, it was truly a pleasure to listen to.
Thank you!! I've studied piano since I was 5, and always loved listening to Beethoven and Shostakovich symphonies. I studied composition in college and then continued studying privately with my comp teacher from college. My biggest issue is that I'm very slow at it. Maybe this year I'll work to get some more pieces completed. ;)
Oh I am seeing that the Nektar's keybed is semi-weighted. Man, the more I look at this the more tempting it becomes. Looks like the same general price range as the Novation Impulse 49, too.
I'm very happy with it. I think with any controllers you'll see reviews of people who love them and hate them. I think for your purposes, either would do, but having 88 keys is always nice.
When you have a piano-like action and you're playing something that is supposed to be smooth like strings or winds, then the velocity it takes to overcome the inertia of the keys creates unwanted accents at the beginning of notes that you may not have with those instruments.
Mike Verta, who is a composer, does many tutorials on virtual instruments, and this two-part series is very informative:
I highly recommend buying any of his videos, and be sure to check out his free stuff. This guy spends hours giving away free advice to composers - and it's good advice.
It seems like a confused spirit of a duck trying to find its way out of a trap? Time limits on songs is like word counts in stories. Hard to deal with LOL.
After a few more listens it starts to sound less strange... coming around to it..
Hmm, the duck may be in the cheap sounding upper horns. Honestly I hear Batman and Lord of the Rings :D Maybe Darkwing Duck, too, though ;P The mix has a lot of room for improvement and there is zero automation or precision control of attack in the notes, etc
Hehehe hooray! Thank you for listening, Tiny :) I just got moved into a new house with bigger studio space, so I'm looking forward to making more stuff like this.
I love this it's very cinematic! It feels like the climax of an important moment is about to happen.
Thank you, Julia, I really appreciate that! :)
I really like the concept, and I do think it ends too quickly. It feels as though you had more to say.
What software did you use? I've learned that the best software is the kind that lets you play it as close to how you want it to sound, so then there's less fiddling afterwards. Automation and expression are hugely important, and mixing too. :)
Hi, @morodiene, thank you! I used Cubase and EastWest Gold symphonic libraries and choirs. I don't actually have a MIDI controller right now, so this was all drawn with the mouse. A controller is next on the list, though! I have only just super begun my experience in mixing music, so need lots of practice there. And when I put this together I just didn't tweak the expression of the instruments at all. I think it would benefit GREATLY from some tweaks in that area, and a good mix job.
I'm glad you liked the concept :) There is actually about 45 more seconds of this piece that is mostly just drum and bass (unfinished), and this 49 second version actually has drum and bass beneath it, too, but I think it sounds cheesy so didn't share ;) Thank you for your comment and the constructive feedback! :)
EW stuff is great once you learn how to use them. Symphonic Choirs is especially finicky. They've just come out with Hollywood Choir which I'm going to try out on their Composer Cloud subscription plan - not paying $600 for something I'm not sure is a huge improvement on SC.
I have a few digital pianos that I've used as controllers, but if you don't need a piano feel, I highly recommend the Nektar Impact LX88+. I just purchased one for under $300 and so far have only used it for live playing, I plan to use it for symphonic software instruments. I think it will do really well and I prefer the feel of a non-piano action for playing in strings and brass.
I've heard some great symphonic stuff done with just clicking in with a mouse. You just have to go into the expression maps and draw in the swells and other CC's. So maybe play around with your existing work here. Do not copy and paste from one track to the next though! Make each slightly different as it would be for different instruments. Also be sure to use panning(left and right) and reverb (front and back) to physically place the different instruments where they would be in an actual orchestra.
Let me know if you have any questions - I'm happy to help!
Hi, @morodiene, wow that Nektar controller looks really impressive! I was looking at a Novation Impulse 49. Do you have any experience with this controller or other Novation controllers? Why do you prefer a non-piano action for strings and brass? I've done a decent amount of MIDI work with the mouse, and almost none with a controller. I had always assumed that something like weighted/semi-weighted keybed would be best for picking up on subtle expression, etc. Would you disagree?
The bulk of my MIDI experience is pretty much confined to EW stuff. I have a few other plug-ins but the EW are my go to and what I've spent the most time becoming familiar with. How is it that you find the choirs to be particularly finicky? I have zero experience really configuring the sounds within the plug-in, and have generally only messed with velocity expression and finding the right places to start/end notes so that things sound organized. I have found that the choirs have a really slow attack.
I totally hear you about Composer Cloud and I think the cost of this kind of software is extremely prohibitive to the novice. I have found the same to be true for mixing and mastering plug-ins. With mixing and mastering plug-ins it seems like you can accomplish some decent stuff using freeware, but if you want a realistic orchestra sound you really do seem to need better software than stock plug-ins. I started out using free soundfonts in Fruity Loops and my lord, the difference in realism between most of those and the EW stuff is striking.
On reverb, I am still verrry new to the effective use of reverb haha. I have basically no idea how to position things from front to back but I understand that it is possible. I guess my very basic guideline is "more reverb=farther away, less=closer", but that's really the extent of any technical knowledge on the subject :D This particular post has no reverb but that reverb which was active in the EW plug-in itself. I have years of learning ahead of me in the mixing department, without a doubt :)
Here are my thoughts on copying and pasting - I LOVE it. It speeds up my workflow immensely. What I tend to do is craft a phrase or motive or what have you in a particular instrument and then copy it into new instruments for modification. Sometimes I will simply take a phrase and move it from a violin in the 4th register to a voila in the 3rd, and maybe a cello in the 1st or 2nd to create a very unified string section. It really depends on what I'm going for. Sometimes I will modify the melody to create a bit of counterpoint within that string section. Sometimes I will avoid copy/paste all together, especially as a way to generate new musical ideas, but when I do use it I always use it as a way to recreate a baseline idea in multiple instruments, which I will then go in and specifically modify to build depth and variation in the music.
I look forward to your input on any future orchestral type posts that I make. I've got several projects that are all mouse-made and I would definitely appreciate an experienced ear's opinion. I don't really know anyone IRL who is doing this kind of stuff! But I have made use of the velocity expression in most of them and they are better in quality than this particular post here.
I very much appreciate your sharing your insight and experience with me, @morodiene. :) And I really look forward to hearing more of the music that you and @negativer create! Thank you very much, ma'am! :)
Well, regarding copy/paste: it's great for composing, but not for production. I separate the two so I compose in Finale, and then I play that into my DAW, where I do not copy and paste once in the DAW or you end up with a very unnatural sounding orchestra.
Here's an idea of what I was able to do with EW Symphonic Choirs. Keep in mind that I had to overdubb all the parts with my own singing 3-4 times per part to get it to be legato and have clear words:
https://steemit.com/originalmusic/@morodiene/end-of-days-the-second-coming-an-original-piece-written-for-orchestra-and-choir
There's a great community of composers using virtual instruments called vi-control.net. Definitely worth joining, but there are some big name professionals on there like Hans Zimmer, so best to do more reading and listening before posting. ;)
This, unfortunately, isn't the best medium to talk, but I'm on The Writer's Block on Discord if you want to chat :)
:O:O:O WOW! Wow wow wow. Do you have an education or training in music? This is composition and execution beyond my ability. Haha! May I ask how long you've been practicing?
I'll check out the vi-control community and look into Finale, and I'll look for you on Discord. Thanks for sharing that piece! It's not just impressive from an analytical perspective, it was truly a pleasure to listen to.
Thank you!! I've studied piano since I was 5, and always loved listening to Beethoven and Shostakovich symphonies. I studied composition in college and then continued studying privately with my comp teacher from college. My biggest issue is that I'm very slow at it. Maybe this year I'll work to get some more pieces completed. ;)
Oh I am seeing that the Nektar's keybed is semi-weighted. Man, the more I look at this the more tempting it becomes. Looks like the same general price range as the Novation Impulse 49, too.
I'm very happy with it. I think with any controllers you'll see reviews of people who love them and hate them. I think for your purposes, either would do, but having 88 keys is always nice.
When you have a piano-like action and you're playing something that is supposed to be smooth like strings or winds, then the velocity it takes to overcome the inertia of the keys creates unwanted accents at the beginning of notes that you may not have with those instruments.
Mike Verta, who is a composer, does many tutorials on virtual instruments, and this two-part series is very informative:
Ahh interesting. Thank you for the insight and thanks for the tutorial!
Wow this may be basic info for MIDI composers but I'm already finding this video to be fundamentally informative. Thank you!
I highly recommend buying any of his videos, and be sure to check out his free stuff. This guy spends hours giving away free advice to composers - and it's good advice.
Very strange, methinks.
In what way?
It seems like a confused spirit of a duck trying to find its way out of a trap? Time limits on songs is like word counts in stories. Hard to deal with LOL.
After a few more listens it starts to sound less strange... coming around to it..
Hmm, the duck may be in the cheap sounding upper horns. Honestly I hear Batman and Lord of the Rings :D Maybe Darkwing Duck, too, though ;P The mix has a lot of room for improvement and there is zero automation or precision control of attack in the notes, etc
It's intriguing. Builds anticipation. And then I'm like: What? Why did it stop?? :-D
Hehehe hooray! Thank you for listening, Tiny :) I just got moved into a new house with bigger studio space, so I'm looking forward to making more stuff like this.
Can hardly wait.