A conversation with a potato about self-ownership.
Potato: Your body isn't property....I find it funny when people try to commodify human existence....you can't be bought, sold, you can't transfer your ownership of your existence to someone else or anything that a lot of what property is requires....the only justification for saying a human being is the owner of his physical body as some form of property is to justify his enslavement or to contractually legitimize him "voluntarily" allowing you to harvest a kidney or something so he can pay rent lol
Stick: So you'd have no issue with rape then.
Potato: I do have an issue with rape.
Stick: Why? You don't own your body and the commune wants to have sex with you.
Potato: I have an issue with anything that is forced and not voluntary....it really has nothing to do with being property though
Stick: It has everything to do with property. You can't claim to being aggressed against if you don't have ownership of yourself.
Potato: If you exist you definitely can proclaim that you have been violated....it has nothing to do with being property lol
Stick: What has been violated? Your property? Your self ownership? Your rights?
Rights are derived from self ownership. Property is derived from self ownership. You have rights because you own your body. Any violation of another's body is a trespass on their property, which is their body. Your body and hands are a means of production, you either own those means, or you don't. If you don't own your own means of production, (your body) then who does? Or are you free to claim? If you don't own yourself, somebody else does, or you're free to claim (rape/abuse/exploit). Except when you say “no” to rape, or to somebody's aggression, you are demonstrating self-ownership while making a claim of self-ownership.
Potato: There is no such thing as a right....by saying you have a right you are proclaiming it to be derived from some source...be it the State, God or some other entity....If you tell a rapist no you are making an existential claim
Stick: Yes there are, and they are derived from self-ownership, that's the point. Morality and property rights all stem from the fact that you own your own body and the effects of it's actions. A right is an inherent entitlement of being able to perform a certain action, or maintain a certain state, without obstruction. You possess and control your body, exclusively, which makes you the owner, and the one who is able to move, think and or speak without obstruction. For somebody to obstruct your inherent and negative right to move, think and or speak, while you are in a state of innocence, then that person if trespassing on your property and is acting as an immoral aggressor. Only negative rights are legitimate rights, and existential claims can only be made because you own yourself.
Potato: Existential claims can be made because you exist
Stick: Right, because you exist and you control yourself, because you own yourself. Rocks exist, can they make existential claims? Humans wouldn't be able to make any claims without first being self-owners. You can't just make up your own definitions of own, ownership, owner, and property; words have definitions. You have an inherent right to free speech and thought. You have the right to motion. You can exercise those rights because you are in possession of your body and control it, which makes you a self-owner. There is no higher authority of an individual than themselves
Potato: There is no such thing as a right and you exist...you do not own yourself lol You are yourself
Stick: Sure, you are yourself, and yourself owns your body. If not, who does your body belong to? Do you concede that your body does in fact belong to you? You've made absolutely no argument so far, by the way.
Potato: You don't own something you are....this is a pretty fundamental concept...lol Ownership is something that extents from you....it doesn't actually pertain to yourself...you do not have to enforce your existence because it just is so lol. I own land....I must defend that claim for me to own it....I own this dollar in my pocket....I must defend that claim in order to actually own it.....I do not...have. to. defend. my. existence....
Stick: Excuse me, are you redefining ownership?
Ownership: the act, state, or right of possessing something.
If you don't possess your body, who does?
You don't possess your fingers, your feet, your nose? Who possess those things?
You do defend your existence, every time you breathe, eat, drink, etc. You do things in self interest to keep yourself alive, or, to defend your existence. Are you just going to wish aggressors away and live off of cosmic energy. Inedia? If you remained stagnant, you would die. Only you can make that decision and defend your existence, because you own yourself.
If your body doesn't belong to you; if your hair, fingernails, feet, legs, or arms do not belong to you, who do they belong to? Who possess YOUR heart? Or who does YOUR heart belong to?!
Own: used with a possessive to emphasize that someone or something belongs or relates to the person mentioned.
Your fingers are never somebody elses fingers. Nobody ever refers to your toes are theirs, because it's used in a possessive matter in that context.
Potato: How can you possess something you are?
Stick: How can you not? If you are brave, do you not possess bravery? How can you not belong to yourself?! Do you believe yourself to own the things that you produce, and why?
Potato: Sure I own the things I produce...I can possess a painting for example....I cant possess myself lmao....I am myself. How can someone inhabit my body?
Stick: You mean other than yourself? Or do you *not inhabit *your body? As far as my knowledge goes, only you inhabit your body... Nobody claimed that somebody else could...You possess control over yourself, because your body belongs to you, you possess your body. See the possessive denouncers? “Your”, “you”....
Potato: You possess control over your actions....but you are merely yourself
Stick: So you acknowledge that you possess control over your body's actions, which demonstrates ownership of it, but you reject ownership of your body...Okay... You inhabit your own body, which means, in a certain sense, it's your homestead that belongs to you, or ,its your vessel that belongs to you. That means that you own your body in which that you exclusively inhabit and or possess, and control.
Potato: Hahahahah I homesteaded my body. My vessel is existential in nature...I was born....I wasn't claimed
Stick: You occupy and make changes to your body through purposeful action controlled by your psyche, consciousness, or, “self”...yes... You are the one who controls your body. Do you not? Who controls your body? Who does your body belong to?
You are not your body and your body is not you, as you made the distinction yourself between body and self. So since you agree to be your "self", and your "self" controls and possesses your body, that means that your body belongs to your self; your self owns your body. Agreed?
Potato: Can someone steal your existence?
Stick: They can take it from you by killing you, there isn't a known way, to my knowledge, to steal somebody's existence in a physical form. Can you steal a radio signal, a piece of light, or a laser beam? Existence is what permits self-ownership. Nobody could own anything, or steal anything, without first existing. Existence comes before the psyche and or self. Existence not being able to be “stolen”, doesn't disprove that the self controls and owns the body. Somebody can steal your toe from you, which is a part of your body, which you have because you exist, but your psyche and or self can not be stolen from you, because it is you.
Potato: Lmao You exist....you don't own anything that you are, if I'm born am I my parents property because I was a product of their labor? Hahaah
Stick: You are your parents positive obligation. They are your stewards until you claim self awareness and autonomy. Right, I just said that you are your psyche and that you can't be stolen, or sold. You can sell pieces of your body without losing pieces of your self and or psyche.
Potato: That's asinine
Stick: ...Okay, but you're deflecting important questions out of incredulity.
Potato: I'm just providing examples and questions that show how silly your claims are
Stick: You still haven't made any arguments... Are you your hand? Are you your butthole?
Potato: I am everything I am
Stick: So you are your heart?
Potato: I am what I am. If I am not then I am not lol...
Stick: So, when your hair gets cut, they are cutting you? .
Potato: It is me it doesn't belong to me.
Stick: I am a body with organs and limbs, but I don't possess any organs or limbs"
"I am everything that I am; I am a heart; I am my hair; I am my body; but I don't posses any hair or hearts, and my body doesn't belong to me.”
Okay Popeye, so nothing belongs to you... if you don't have a legitimate claim to your own body, then how could you possibly have a legitimate claim to anything else?!...
Potato: Lol ownership is something you can possess....you can't possess what you are....
Stick: I possess ownership? Come again... ownership is a descriptor that identifies something possed by something that is...I am not my existence, my existence is not me.
Potato: What is? Lol
Stick: Something that is, meaning you. Something that exist; a being. Ownership identifies what is possessed by something or someone. Your are not your right big toe, you possess your right big tie.
Or are you your butthole?
Potato: Is my butthole me?
Stick: When you lose a toe, you don't lose your “self”, your consciousness, or your existence. You exist, you are your consciousness, which owns your toe.
Potato: Correct you still exist...hopefully....after you lose a toe...by exist I mean are alive
Stick: A toe you no longer control or possess if you don't hold on to it.
Potato: It used to be a toe that was a part of you....now it's not.
Stick: So how can you not possess something that is a part of you? How can something that is a part of you not belong to you? It once was a part of your body, now it's not, and you, are still you, despite losing your toe; you didn't lose yourself by losing your toe. Your body is often referred to as “you”, or your “self”, because your actual self, psyche, and or consciousness, resides inside of your body, controls it, and is the thing that has a physical form. Your body represents your self, and that is why the two are often conflated.
Potato: It belongs to me but how can I own a portion of what exists as me?
Stick: So you acknowledged that you possess it, and now that it belongs to you, but you still reject that you own it? You still reject ownership over *your toe, or over *your body?
Who else can demonstrate control over your toe?
Potato: That toe is a part of me....but how can I own a toe unless I cut it off and claim it for sale? Then I own it.
Stick: You possessed it all along, you always had control over it, it always belonged to you, you, as a self owner, have the right to chop it off and sell it; because it is yours. When you lose your toe, your do not lose a part of your consciousness, self, and or psyche; you are still you, even if you were to swap bodies with me. If you woke up with your psyche inside of my body, and I woke up with my psyche inside of your body, would you claim to be "me" now? Would you claim to now have control over “me”? Since according to you, I am my body, which you would now be controlling with your psyche and consciousness.
Potato: I suppose I wouldn't say I was controlling "you" in that case, but sure something can be a part of you without you owning it....my consciousness is mine but I don't own it....I do own what comes from my consciousness....my actions my thoughts etc...I can't sell a portion of my consciousness....can't transfer it like a land deed....can't allow someone else control over it etc
Stick: Wait... your consciousness is your self. You are your consciousness. Now you're getting it. Maybe I should have started with that...That's why you still exist until you have no consciousness. When 100% of your psyche, consciousness, or, "self", is gone, so are "you"; you're brain-dead; that is death. When somebody asks you for your opinion, it comes from your psyche, not from your hand or your hair. You psyche and or self controls your toe, your toe does not control your psyche. The mind and body are separate.
Also, you just claimed ownership over your consciousness...you said “it's mine”...If your consciousness and or psyche is yours, that means you own it...You are constantly disregarding the definitions of words. Something can't be “mine” while it not belonging to me. Consciousness is not physical and doesn't meet your arbitrary definition of property, so how, can you own your consciousness while not being able to own your body? How can you own your psyche while not owning your body? Mind controls body, body doesn't control the mind. How can something that I physically possess and control, that belongs to me, and is “mine”, be something that I do not own?
You have already conceded by acknowledging that you possess your toe, that it belongs to you, and that you control it.
“It belongs to me but how can I own a portion of what exists as me?"
“You possess control over your actions..."
You can “own a portion of what exist as you”, if that even makes sense, because you have consciousness and a psyche, or “self”, to claim it and demonstrate it. A rock doesn't own itself because it isn't conscious, isn't sentient, has no psyche, and can't demonstrate control over itself. A rock can not demonstrate autonomy. Your consciousness, psyche, or “self”, allows you to do that.
If it belongs to you, then you own it. You are your self, or consciousness; your consciousness, or self, owns your toe; it belongs to you and your self, you control it. You have first use claim to your body, demonstrate control of it, possess it, it belongs to you, you own it.
How can you not belong to yourself?
I think you missed the clincher: in order to propose something, tacitly by your fact of making the proposition you cannot then issue a valid proposition that you have no right to exclusive control of yourself, at minimum your right to control your voice and make a proposition.
Otherwise, how can you even ask for permission since this is a proposal? And who can give you that right anyway?
Self ownership is tacitly expressed even if your words contradict it.
:)
can't try to refute it without performing a performative contradiction. Agreed.
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