I’ve noted before that of the more than 1,500 people who’ve been on The Forbes 400 list since it debuted in 1982, not one of them has been more obsessed with his place on the list than our current president, Donald Trump. This morning, Jonathan Greenberg, a reporter who worked for Forbes in the early 1980s, added to this canon, when he discovered his audiotapes with Trump from the primordial days of the Forbes “Rich List.” The exaggeration, lies and spin formed a familiar pattern that we’ve documented over the years, though Greenberg added a new wrinkle–Trump apparently called him, pretending to be his public relations representative (“John Barron”). It’s a fun and telling story.
It’s also completely in character with the president’s multi-decade Forbes relationship. I spent several hours with Trump during the presidential campaign, discussing his net worth and his relationship with Forbes. If you want the definitive take, you can read the cover story that resulted. Bolstered by Greenberg’s new information, Trump’s Forbes fixation carries five takeaways.
The Trump Rule
The rest of the world has gotten a taste of Trump’s loose relationship with facts over the past year or two, but Forbes has been wrestling with it for decades. A typical interaction: "I'm going to show you cash-flow numbers I've never shown anyone before," Trump told us back in the 1980s, holding documents in his hand – and then folding the pages to obscure the final column. Fanciful financial summaries would arrive at the Forbes offices, often on gilded Trump-embossed letterheads for extra pop.
"We soon learned to take the number he threw out to us for his net worth, immediately divide it by three and refine it from there," says Harold Seneker, who ran The Forbes 400 for the first 15 years of its existence. For years, despite the fact that we talk to upwards of 100 people each year to estimate Trump's worth, that “divide by three” rule of thumb was known informally as “the Trump Rule.”
It’s A Little Bit About Business
Trump’s business—and brand—has always been rooted in hype. The Biggest. The Best. The Richest. Hence, the business importance of the Forbes 400 listing. "It was good for financing," Trump told me, echoing what other developers have told us over the years: that slapping a high Forbes 400 estimate on a banker's desk can’t hurt. When I was a $27,000-a-year cub reporter on The Forbes 400, the largest strip-mall developer in Texas, the late Jerry J. Moore, offered me a six-figure p.r. job "with lots of golf" if I would only nudge his number closer to billionaire status.
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It’s A Lot About Ego
There are basically two types of billionaires in the world: those who think they should be higher on the Forbes list and those who want to be off. Precious few seem content with where we think they should be. Within the higher camp, a certain real estate tycoon who craves compliments the way lungs consume oxygen stands alone. "For the record, he regards the 400 as something of a bible," says a note in Forbes’ Trump file, written after a 1990s lunch with Forbes 400 staffers, where he lobbied for a higher listing, "and is convinced others do, too."
He and I had a sharp back-and-forth when I pointed out that the difference between an estimated net worth of $4 billion and one of $10 billion is as abstractly irrelevant as a star that's either 4 billion light-years away or 10 billion.
Said Trump: “I don't look good, to be honest. I mean, I look better if I'm worth $10 billion than if I'm worth $4 billion."
"You're gonna look bad," he added. "And look, all I can say is Forbes is a bankrupt magazine, doesn't know what they're talking about. That's all I'm gonna say. 'Cause it's embarrassing to me."
So did Trump think Forbes used a different methodology to value him than it used for every other real estate titan on The Forbes 400? "Yes, I do," he responded. "Yes, I do."
Really? Why? "Because I'm famous, and they're not. Because when [Richard] LeFrak had dinner at Joe's Stone Crab, he calls me up and he says, 'Could you help me get a reservation?' "
It’s All A Game To Him
In a 2007 deposition, Trump declared that his estimates of personal net worth were subject to day-to-day whims. "Even my own feelings affect my value to myself," he said. When asked to specify, he described it as "my general attitude at the time that the question may be asked." And if that general attitude is negative? "You wouldn't tell a reporter you're doing poorly."
As his empire cratered around 1990, Forbes wrote a famous cover story that documented his implosion and argued that he might even have negative net worth – something he vigorously denied, citing fanciful facts and figures. He was subsequently removed from The Forbes 400 and stayed off for five years.
Trump did not like this challenge to his reputation. He published an essay for the Los Angeles Times syndicate: "Forbes Carried Out Personal Vendetta in Print." He argued that the "willfully wrong" piece was driven by the desire to sell magazines and damage his reputation. He told ABC's Sam Donaldson that "Forbes has been after me for years, consistently after me."
"Forbes is doing everything they can, possibly, to make me look as bad as possible."
In 2015, Trump finally admitted the obvious to us – that he stretched the facts in those dark days. Then, without irony, he criticizes Forbes because "you were actually high." Added Trump: "I deserved to be off [the list]."
"By the way, I never complained." When reminded that he did indeed complain – loudly – Trump shrugged.
"Yeah, whatever."
Yes, Trump Really Is A Billionaire
Trump aggressively conflated his father’s holdings and his own in that first list. Very ironic, since his self-styled hero’s journey pushes the narrative that his father barely gave him anything – that this son of a real estate tycoon is actually a self-made man.
But just as we’ve gotten smarter about appraising Trump (though it remains the most intensive file we do) – Trump’s business, scarred by his previous financial meltdown, has also gotten smarter. Most of his deals are now licensing arrangements, and most of his projects are now funded by other people’s money. Trump repeatedly told Forbes he’s worth $10 billion. He’s not. But he’s also not broke. Doing deals with other people’s money is a good, and relatively safe, business. We’ve spent thousands of hours scrubbing his file and feel good with our estimate of $3.1 billion, or less than one-third of what he’s claimed.
The Trump Rule, it seems, still holds
Sources Forbes.