RE: Batman

[monogrande]

Was the Joker a product of escalation? If you recall the conversation between Bruce Wayne and Alfred in the Dark Knight, Alfred notes that some men are evil without motivation. As he put it, "Some men just want to watch the world burn."

He makes the Joker sound like an existence without cause, not an inevitable cause of 'escalation'.

Comments

[anarchospace]

Can anything exist without cause? Can people act without motivation?

Bruce Wayne: [while in the underground bat cave] Targeting me won't get their money back. I knew the mob wouldn't go down without a fight, but this is different. They crossed the line.
Alfred Pennyworth: You crossed the line first, sir. You squeezed them, you hammered them to the point of desperation. And in their desperation, they turned to a man they didn't fully understand.
Bruce Wayne: Criminals aren't complicated, Alfred. Just have to figure out what he's after.
Alfred Pennyworth: With respect Master Wayne, perhaps this is a man that you don't fully understand, either. A long time ago, I was in Burma. My friends and I were working for the local government. They were trying to buy the loyalty of tribal leaders by bribing them with precious stones. But their caravans were being raided in a forest north of Rangoon by a bandit. So, we went looking for the stones. But in six months, we never met anybody who traded with him. One day, I saw a child playing with a ruby the size of a tangerine. The bandit had been throwing them away.
Bruce Wayne: So why steal them?
Alfred Pennyworth: Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

Even here Alfred makes reference to escalation - the mob turned to the Joker because of Batman and his tactics.

In the end, the Joker even says he doesn't want to kill Batman, the "what would I do without you" line:)

[monogrande]

Good point.

I think we're not arguing the same point here, however. What I am addressing is that latter part - Joker's darkness isn't summoned by Batman's light. It is a darkness that exists as a parallel to Batman's unwavering sense of good.

Of course, this pertains to Joker as he exists in the Nolanverse. I actually like the Flashpoint version of Batman and Joker as well, if you're familiar with that. I won't spoil it, in case you haven't gotten a chance to read it.

[anarchospace]

Joker's darkness isn't summoned by Batman's light

I would ask: What light? A child playing in the sandbox, an artist lost in his painting or a girl on the subway enjoying a great song on her mp3, people in love, a walk in nature...that's light. Batman may have "good intentions" and he may care about people but he is very far from the light.

He even says: "Bats frighten me. It’s time my enemies share my dread."

I don't consider him as the incarnation of light in this story.

I do believe, in the context of this story, it was he that attracted Joker to Gotham.