There's been a lot of discussions lately about rewards and payments, without getting too specific on who and which I just want to address some thoughts I have on it from my perspective. Warning though that this is kind of a free-write so I may be moving the conversation all over the place and at the end there may not even be a great point about it as I don't even know the endgame as I'm writing this right now but maybe we'll find some clarity or at least something that might help us broaden our horizons.
I wrote a post a week or so ago addressing the spike in the price of Hive and comparing it to when something similar but crazier happened back in 2017 when both SBD and Steem spiked which resulted in crazy payouts for post rewards. The main difference today is that we have free downvotes and the curve isn't as linear but the latter doesn't matter as much. The free downvotes are great and when used well even more so but along with the price of Hive going up a lot we have to adjust with it and not let the $ amounts alone affect our downvoting decisions.
What I mean by this is that we can't look at an author who's for instance been consistent, someone who's shown that they're here for the community and don't just post, weasle their way into autovotes and generally only care about the rewards without giving anything back to the community with activity, visibility from the outside or raising engagement in the comment section which I think we can all agree is something we want for our platform. Of course there are also others who do a lot behind the scenese, many of which we may not be aware of ourselves because how could we, there's so many users here it is hard to know what exactly they do - and although post rewards/the reward pool shouldn't be based on what you do for the platform "behind the scenes" now that we have the DAO it is of course a much easier option for stakeholders to choose than going through proposal voting. This is something I hope will change over time to reward a lot of other diverse activity that is a net positive for our currency and platform but until then we can't just judge a users rewards only by their content and $ amount during/after a pump. I realize I may be biased here because I belong to one of those users but I was thinking of someone else that's been discussed recently when I initially wrote that, either way, let me point out some more things about this.
There's still many who bring up the changes that occurred with the EIP which adjusted curation and author rewards from 25/75 to 50/50. Although many at the time said that this will drive authors away and content would degrade it's safe to assume that the other changes of the EIP, mainly downvotes that disincentivized buying votes just for the ROI raised curation so much more that authors realized that writing greater content meant higher rewards without them having to buy votes. Many keep bringing this up though as they see downvotes on author rewards and big stakeholders only focusing on maximizing their curation rewards as this change mainly having stolen a big share of the rewards pool to go towards investors/big stakeholders and now with downvotes they're "taking even more" from them. There's of course also the 10% that goes to the DAO but I think this post is already complicated enough so let's not go into that for now. My point is that this is something that investors may easily forget and of course it's not something that we should use as an excuse but it's also necessary to point out when the reason to certain downvotes is "over-rewarded".
This is something I don't really agree with a lot of the time. I may be biased here again because one of my biggest focuses in the past 4 years has been to assist distribution to make our currency one of the best distributed ones out there and one big reason for that is that when the next bull run hits and our coin goes up another 10-100x having as many "dolphins and orcas" will only do well for our platform. It will do well because we won't just be relying on curation projects and other big stakeholders to welcome newcomers and spread distribution even further and at the same time if there's a next bear run approaching there will be more stakeholders there to trade their way into more or less stake of our currency - although the former preferred of course as long as it's a healthy evened out distribution. Okay I really have to stop myself from getting even more sidetracked now as I almost went into the rabbit hole of smaller stakeholders not realizing what they are holding and carelessly dumping it at any price and just feeding whales on exchanges which doesn't help distribution and degrades the work of curators but yes let's go back to what I initially wanted to discuss. To conclude this paragraph though, remember that curators are also getting a lot of rewards in $ when the price spikes and unfortunately there's a lot less "unselfish" curators out there that don't focus on maximizing rewards than there are those who just curate cause they like the content even after 5 minutes.
Okay so about over-rewarded, asking for too much pay from the DAO, etc. I see this excuse of "well it might be an average pay in country X but in country X it is sooo much". I don't agree with this at all. Look at it this way from a curators perspective. When I see quality content I don't go so far as to check where the content creator is from and base my upvote strength depending on if he/she is from a 3rd world country or Liechtenstein (just a country I know has a high GDP). That's not cool in my opinion, this technology is here to remove borders, fees and middlemen and adjust the effort and rewards people get for it all over the world. This is what's wrong with the world in general, my girlfriend mentioned the other day that a Spotify subscription in her country is way cheaper than one from my country which is kind of absurd if you think about it. Now I am not against content getting rewarded a bit less, especially those who constantly make a lot of rewards but that should be adjusted more considering the stake they are getting and not the $ rewards based on prices right now. If you feel someone is earning too much % stake considering the weekly reward pool then yes downvote it a bit to adjust it for the rest of content creators but this is something you should have decided unrelated to current price and it's a bit unfair to do so now just cause the author is now earning a lot of SBD as well - that's not his fault that's how the system works. Yes there are many autovotes and lazy curators and I have no problem adjusting that with downvotes but just don't let the current rewards affect your judgement. I see this excuse of "omg he's earning $100 per post!!" and throwing downvotes cause of that is a bit lame in my opinion, especially if it's authors who've been here through thick and thin. It's unfair to target them now when they are finally getting to enjoy a price rise, it would be less unfair in my opinion to adjust post rewards a little bit of those who haven't been around at all in the past and only came back now because of the price increase.
This is of course pretty subjective everything and everyone is obviously free to downvote and upvote how they want but we should also counter downvotes we think are excessive/personal/bad intentions however we see fit. In the end it's mainly about the perspective/experiences of each voter, we can't know everyone's story, activity and efforts they put in on and off the platform to judge their rewards/stake they are earning but letting the $ amount affect our decisions is wrong in my opinion.
Okay so like I said this post was a bit open ended and could've ended in many different ways and I'm not even sure if it brought any real value to the reader but with the recent price actions it's something to keep in mind when you decide on downvoting authors based on the $ value of posts. Same thing also goes for those who complain about downvotes, though, it shouldn't be something that "chases you off" the platform cause if we're going to be real honest most of the time your contributions aren't something that would've made you the same amount of rewards on any other platform even without the downvotes. To end this I also want to point out to be careful with downvotes, one thing I really disagree with them is when they're used to zero out posts completely. Please use them to discourage autovoting/front-running and self-voting of authors by lowering the rewards, the autovoters/self-voters will over time realize that if they just curate other "better" content they'll earn more than by just self-voting less quality content - although many would just do it for the attention or offsite deals for promotion, etc, but zeroing out posts should be discouraged.
I agree with the two points here: (1) looking at "over-rewarded" posts in the perspective of the country they're living in is absurd and (2) authors who have been here through thick and thin deserves a little bit more than those who came back due to the price increase.
For the first point, Hive should be beyond countries. People who compare posts based on the author's cost of living are thinking backwards. For the second point, I think this stems from who adds value more to this space. I'm sure those who made a comeback will be gone again in the next bear market.
This is the bit that is frustrating for me, it is like people forget how the pool works. They see a 80 dollar post and forget that the same post was less than a 10 dollar post not long ago, and people were dumping all that Hive at low prices too, while a few were powering up. A couple days of pump and people go crazy.
Pity I powered up and didn't have liquids to sell. :D
Same same same same
Mhhh I'm still very new here on Hive, so I'm still learning the ropes and updates, compared to Steemit, but I have to say I am a little scared of these downvotes. I think it enables "mean people" to shit on someone's parade so to speak. Of course there are instances where it is justified (self voters, parasites), but as a general "normal" user it's a bit scary. I hope I don't get too many of those...
Zeroing out posts is probably the one thing that WILL drive people away from the platform. Imagine making what you think is decent content and then having it Zeroed because reasons. It's not a nice feeling. I got a bunch zeroed once from a retaliation downvote from a abuser, Didn't lose much, kept say to myself oh it's fine I Expected this. But deep down it still hurt.
The only times I generally downvote is on content I think is bad and has no effort to it or post errors I come across where people posted something incorrectly and edited it out saying don't vote error in post etc.
Oh and sometimes religion content because I'm a heathen and I don't like religion. depends what mood i'm in, I don't go actively looking to downvote religious stuff but if its in front of me and I'm like 'WAAA me no like' I'd downvote it.
Yes I know kinda a petty reason but it is what it is.
I was also going to bring up the fact that you seem like you get a lot of auto votes since you have like 300 votes after 30 mins. But then I remembered that you've been around for ages and also 28k followers and I'm like. 'oh yeah.. thats probably why' xD
...see my comment on here regarding this problem.
Kind of a lot to unpack here but my take away is that with power [Hive Power] comes responsibility. One of these responsibilities is using sound judgement and perspective to decide if a post is being over rewarded. I think you're asking that those wielding the power to look at the bigger picture before slapping a down vote on a piece of content..right? I think that's a fair point and a reasonable ask, if that was actually one of your points.
decent and experienced writers earn out in the real world. If a post is surpassing this you can ask yourself is this level of writing is what I would expect from a freelancer earning 0.10 a word. I like this view because people are writing content to earn, and they have options, they can choose Hive or they can choose a content mill for employment or direct employment with an established publisher. Well written, edited, formatted content should earn, if it does have these things it really shouldn't earn anywhere near this level.I've put most of my stake into my @battlegames project and am constantly doing manual curation, so I see a lot content each day. To help determine what I think should be actual value I take the perspective of an intermediate or advanced blogger or writer who is earning lets say 0.10 cents a word on an 800 word article. Thats about $80 USD, this is what
Anyways just some food for thought, I think its good to raise these points as you have, have discussion, toss ideas and theories around..
I don't think I've ever used down-voting, partly because I think : who am I to judge? But, also, because I don't want to start a down-voting war.
Sure, I don't understand why some memes make the big money they do or games, or post that state the obvious and rehash what everyone else is saying... But, I don't think about it too too much & am happy when a post of mine is read and curated, from time to time. I've been fairly regular with using #posh -- so, I think that helps. Hope Hive goes back up, again, and grateful for the increased visibility!
Cheers, Yahia
Have a look at my comment here...lololol
I think some people can really be intimated by looking at people's post and seeing them earn like $100 while their own post is finding it difficult to even hit $1. This might even cause them to hate and result in downvote the $100 post due to fistration
I actually get this feeling in the back of my mind sometimes but I ignore it because it's stupid like a lot of the things that go on in my head. xD
Nice long and little bit "messy" 🙂 piece of information about some of the logic behind price and rewards.
Thank you!
Now, I need help with an idea I am working on to bring a big community to HIVE, can I have a talk with you?
Yeah, feel free to contact me on discord and I'll reply asap.
Thank you. I did
Imo the downvotes should be used exclusively for plagiarism and spamming, for me hasn't too much sense to downvote something because the content creator has too many rewards or because you don't like it.
That's a very subjetive pow that can be used for multiple purpouses many of them unjustified. Saw in the post of DAO (i think that most of us know which is) downvotes on comments because simply one user disagree with another, that's for me a bad use of downvotes that can end in a flag war or in bullying someone.
I see that pretty absurd and bad looking for newcomers, gives the sensation that this blockchain is a bit like a jungle with a darwinist pow "the survival of the fittest" that I don't like at all.
I liked your post, imo has very solid points.
A good post is a good post, I don't care if you're in NYC or Manila. On a post I can see what was done. The DAO has pretty much been a black box.
These downvotes due to too high rewards also have a big disadvantage when the hive price rises, because the rewards have not changed in the form of HIVE. Someone who gets 10 HIVE in a post got $2 at 20 cents/HIVE and at $10/Hive it would be $100, but in both cases, he only gets 10 HIVE, but they are worth different amounts depending on the time. According to the logic of people who downvote because of too many rewards, you should actually deduct something retroactively from people xD
You get about 50 HIVE per post with your posts, which is about $20 at the moment, and there is no screaming that your rewards are too high, but if HIVE shoots up again, people will surely come and think you are getting too much. From the point of view of HIVE, nothing has changed for you.
Maybe we should simply change the display of the rewards to HP, but it does not look so nice on the outside because it attracts more people when they see that a post has made several hundred $.
Man that was hard to follow!
We shouldn’t be calculating anything in terms of UsD or any other currency. We should be calculating it in terms of the total daily rewards pool, and the total fund for proposals.
I didn’t agree about 50% curation or downvotes but the overall atmosphere has gotten a lot better and I can see how both played a part.
Now we just need to get more users onboard. Good job at reddit. I just made a post making the case for you tubers to ease their way over here and help build this place together. I like dans invitation for people to drop YouTube completely, but I think that’s pretty terrifying to any who are still monetized so it depends on the YouTuber. It will take some time for them to move their followings over here so we need to give them ideas about how to do it and why it’s beneficial for everyone (rewarding good comments, contests for fan base, ability to form a community around a topic)
I feel personally responsible for 5xing our user base haha. I want to see this place with the numbers steem used to have, I think we could keep them
Fué sumamente nutritivo leer tanto el articulo como las opiniones de cada uno de ustedes, soy nueva y de verdad es importante ver el comportamiento negativo para aprender de esto también, que lastima que esto ocurra.... y que los votos negativos no sean para publicaciones copiadas o cosas así. Se supone que los contenidos son subjetivos, me gustó mucho haber leido por aqui! Un abrazo a todos, tuve que usar el traductor para leerlos XD, me pareció interesante.!!!!
Hi, could you help me? I'm getting negative votes from @ctime and @jaguar.force on my posts and I don't see the evil in them, could you a person with enough experience help me and advise me what I'm doing wrong? It gives a very bad impression that if someone new to the platform, like me, is attacked in this way, what do you gain? Do we invite more people to create content if there is no one to protect them from abuse?
Can you check my publications and see if there's anything wrong? I'd be very happy
https://hive.blog/hive-148441/@hivemania/esp-eng-hive-art-dibujando-con-violetth-bolivar-hivemania
contact me at discord and I will give you all the details.
no, some information cannot be published, for strategic reasons.
May I ask why you keep downvoting me, even my post payout is not so outstanding? My posts are all original and I write very seriously. I don't buy votes either. Why target a serious and loyal contributor here? Especially when my payouts are not really that top ... I hope to reason first. If there is no response, I'll seek to bring this issue to others' attention.
I think the reason is personal.