How do you keep milkers and scammers from using it to minimize the visibility of what they are doing? There is already a problem with people hiding milking in comments, and creating a ton of work for people trying to track that down and keep on top of it (generally unpaid or minimally-paid work at that). Do you really want to give them another tool?
FWIW my recollection was that the experimental tag used by @burnpost was once hidden (which was why I originally used it for @burnpost). I don't recall when it changed, but I'm really not sure it is a good idea.
Decentralized systems require us to think about not only how features can be used but also how they can be abused. Easily abused features need to be reworked, removed, or countered with some other offsetting benefit for the "good guys".
Finally, it may be ugly that these posts have visibility but is it "bad"? I personally think both projects are a benefit to Steem (sure not everyone agrees, and they should vote accordingly). In the case of @burnpost, when it had just a few whales supporting it, the rewards were generally around $20. As it started to get visibility, it also got more support, as more Steem voters saw the initiative and decided to support it. There is now a lot more burning happening as a result. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so, and neither do the voters who have joined in supporting it.
Cosmetics matter, but they aren't the only thing that matters.
Firstly, I support and vote on both projects and have no problem with them earning visibility.
Had I not been getting off the bus this morning I would have mentioned the risk of users hiding posts from trending to escape peer review, that’s a fair point but easily solvable with a show/hide ‘hidden’ - same functionality as is in place for Resteems.
To some crypto educated newcomers, seeing a community burning its tokens could be a seen as a positive, but I get the feeling that most new visitors to steemit.com would be rather clueless to this ‘less attractive’ content.
IMO there should be another welcome page that isn't a trending-type page that is based on votes.
I agree with you that for new visitors seeing the most voted content is not the most appealing content, nor is it ever likely to be a good variety that shows the broad range of what Steem has to offer.
Especially so for not-logged-in users who can't vote (up or down) on the content anyway.
We could name a 100 things that we would want different but in the end we have to deal with what we have now and what we have now is 6-7 potato/burnpost trending posts.
You could claim those posts have value since people are voting them but there is no escaping that they are shitposts and whenever someone comes here they see those shitposts.
People that agree with my stance are in the overwhelming majority in numbers yet in minority stake. (Dig through the posts on this topic)
Stake does trump numbers here which is why everyone is trying to appeal to common sense of those running these projects.
This isnt a good look for Steem and another thing to consider is the creators that see towards what the rewards are going. This isnt encouraging anyone to remain here but rather killing motivation.
Im not saying we should be bound by what others feel and think but if youre a big stake holder you probably should consider it and weigh the pros vs cons when doing burnpost/sbdpotato type projects.
There was this dapp on Steem that was like quora. They had placeholder posts for their comments.
Why not stop making these Burnpost posts and simply vote comments, 10 of them a day at lower values?
Based on repetition of the same post content where 3-4 of the exact same post takes up trending spots. Based on low effort of the presented content. Based on justifiable assumptions of what those coming to steem will think seeing sbdpotato and burnpost taking the majority of the trending spots.
Comments wont appear if you spread the votes over multiple comments.
Use steemvoter if you cant remember to vote comments.
Comments wont appear if you spread the votes over multiple comments
This could work if the number of comment are high (say 20 or 30 per day), and people spread out their votes on the lower value comments, but that's a bit of a leap, since you can't control where people vote.
Based on low effort of the presented content
Low effort is kind of irrelevant since the reward is zero. The ratio of effort to reward is more favorable than any other post in fact.
Now if other people want to make higher effort, higher quality posts and also burn a serious chunk of their rewards (maybe not 100%, but also not the token 3% that I sometimes see), they would probably get more votes than burnpost (since, yes, by intent and in fact burnposts do suck on matter of content), and this problem would be solved.
Despite being the creator of burnpost, I routinely direct my own vote power to other posts that burn and also have other value instead of to burnpost (which only burns and has no other value), so this is not entirely theoretical. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.
hey man, since you have an interest on this experiment, how about we start discussing with actual facts and knowledge, and not "guessing" if this could work or not.
There is also a lot of other negative implications (besides trending pollution) than can come from this, and i am just doing a bit more research about it before writing about it.
Why not stop making these Burnpost posts and simply vote comments, 10 of them a day at lower values?
Burnpost comments have about the same value as the posts usually (not always, sometimes they are somewhat lower), and comments still show up on trending.
Yeah I said the same thing elsewhere. 20-30 comments per day could help. But people may still pile on to the higher ones. I'll consider trying it though.
I thought those concerns over the content were worried how it looks to the outside?
Precisely, for people who visit for the first time with no cookies and hit trending. People will mute and filter after they are already logged in if they have a modicum of technical ability.
That sounds ideal and also quite simple to implement. A Steem centric post, although I don’t think the topic should be out of bounds, could be hidden by an author aware the post holds little value outside - I’m not sure how many users are at this level of awareness/care though.
How do you keep milkers and scammers from using it to minimize the visibility of what they are doing? There is already a problem with people hiding milking in comments, and creating a ton of work for people trying to track that down and keep on top of it (generally unpaid or minimally-paid work at that). Do you really want to give them another tool?
FWIW my recollection was that the experimental tag used by @burnpost was once hidden (which was why I originally used it for @burnpost). I don't recall when it changed, but I'm really not sure it is a good idea.
Decentralized systems require us to think about not only how features can be used but also how they can be abused. Easily abused features need to be reworked, removed, or countered with some other offsetting benefit for the "good guys".
Finally, it may be ugly that these posts have visibility but is it "bad"? I personally think both projects are a benefit to Steem (sure not everyone agrees, and they should vote accordingly). In the case of @burnpost, when it had just a few whales supporting it, the rewards were generally around $20. As it started to get visibility, it also got more support, as more Steem voters saw the initiative and decided to support it. There is now a lot more burning happening as a result. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so, and neither do the voters who have joined in supporting it.
Cosmetics matter, but they aren't the only thing that matters.
Hi @smooth
Firstly, I support and vote on both projects and have no problem with them earning visibility.
Had I not been getting off the bus this morning I would have mentioned the risk of users hiding posts from trending to escape peer review, that’s a fair point but easily solvable with a show/hide ‘hidden’ - same functionality as is in place for Resteems.
To some crypto educated newcomers, seeing a community burning its tokens could be a seen as a positive, but I get the feeling that most new visitors to steemit.com would be rather clueless to this ‘less attractive’ content.
Wishing you a good new year.
IMO there should be another welcome page that isn't a trending-type page that is based on votes.
I agree with you that for new visitors seeing the most voted content is not the most appealing content, nor is it ever likely to be a good variety that shows the broad range of what Steem has to offer.
Especially so for not-logged-in users who can't vote (up or down) on the content anyway.
Happy new year to you as well!
We could name a 100 things that we would want different but in the end we have to deal with what we have now and what we have now is 6-7 potato/burnpost trending posts.
You could claim those posts have value since people are voting them but there is no escaping that they are shitposts and whenever someone comes here they see those shitposts.
People that agree with my stance are in the overwhelming majority in numbers yet in minority stake. (Dig through the posts on this topic)
Stake does trump numbers here which is why everyone is trying to appeal to common sense of those running these projects.
This isnt a good look for Steem and another thing to consider is the creators that see towards what the rewards are going. This isnt encouraging anyone to remain here but rather killing motivation.
Im not saying we should be bound by what others feel and think but if youre a big stake holder you probably should consider it and weigh the pros vs cons when doing burnpost/sbdpotato type projects.
There was this dapp on Steem that was like quora. They had placeholder posts for their comments.
Why not stop making these Burnpost posts and simply vote comments, 10 of them a day at lower values?
Based on what? Speed of production?
The experiment is of interest to me and that’s why I vote the posts.
I for one would (and do) forget to vote these comments, and at present, these comments also appear in Trending.
Based on repetition of the same post content where 3-4 of the exact same post takes up trending spots. Based on low effort of the presented content. Based on justifiable assumptions of what those coming to steem will think seeing sbdpotato and burnpost taking the majority of the trending spots.
Comments wont appear if you spread the votes over multiple comments.
Use steemvoter if you cant remember to vote comments.
This could work if the number of comment are high (say 20 or 30 per day), and people spread out their votes on the lower value comments, but that's a bit of a leap, since you can't control where people vote.
Low effort is kind of irrelevant since the reward is zero. The ratio of effort to reward is more favorable than any other post in fact.
Now if other people want to make higher effort, higher quality posts and also burn a serious chunk of their rewards (maybe not 100%, but also not the token 3% that I sometimes see), they would probably get more votes than burnpost (since, yes, by intent and in fact burnposts do suck on matter of content), and this problem would be solved.
Despite being the creator of burnpost, I routinely direct my own vote power to other posts that burn and also have other value instead of to burnpost (which only burns and has no other value), so this is not entirely theoretical. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.
hey man, since you have an interest on this experiment, how about we start discussing with actual facts and knowledge, and not "guessing" if this could work or not.
Feel free to read what i wrote about the basic economic reason why this won't work:
https://steempeak.com/sbdpotato/@phgnomo/law-of-supply-and-demand-definition-and-explanation-or-why-the-sbdpotato-experiment-just-won-t-work
There is also a lot of other negative implications (besides trending pollution) than can come from this, and i am just doing a bit more research about it before writing about it.
Burnpost comments have about the same value as the posts usually (not always, sometimes they are somewhat lower), and comments still show up on trending.
I mean, make more of them. VP is limited, comments (realistically) arent.
Yeah I said the same thing elsewhere. 20-30 comments per day could help. But people may still pile on to the higher ones. I'll consider trying it though.
By adding a button "show hidden" ;)
Seriously, steemit lacks so many functionalities that it's hard to believe. So happy that we have steempeak.
Annnd, problem solved.
Okay let's think this through.
One of two things is going to happen:
Also, you can use the mute button if you want to stop seeing this, right?
Those of us logged in and complaining about content from this accounts need to find the mute button.
I thought those concerns over the content were worried how it looks to the outside?
Precisely, for people who visit for the first time with no cookies and hit trending. People will mute and filter after they are already logged in if they have a modicum of technical ability.
The idea of a tag or similar feature that hides from not-logged-in users seems fine to me, probably a good idea.
That sounds ideal and also quite simple to implement. A Steem centric post, although I don’t think the topic should be out of bounds, could be hidden by an author aware the post holds little value outside - I’m not sure how many users are at this level of awareness/care though.
I was down voted and sent a threatening message for voting @sbdpotato posts. Interesting times!