At school one of my favorite subjects was biology.
A lot of my religious exposure as a child and adolescent would be to those who would be classed under the various flavors of "creationists".
South Africa's government at that stage was deeply entrenched in Calvinism and evolution was not really taught in much detail at government schools. Much of my exposure to evolution at that stage was from teachers (who should have known better)preaching against it.
That said, I have always had an open mind and can hold multiple seemingly contradictory sets of ideas around while I gather more evidence.
Another favorite subject at school was geography, especially the parts on geology and geomorphology. I was and still am an avid rock hound and love to read the stories written in the rocks. With that background and knowledge it would not be long before I could confirm the evidence for myself in the field. I did however entertain alternate and test variations of hypotheses for myself. They were many and varied but I have on my own gravitated back to the general consensus views prevalent today since that is where all the evidence points.
One set of hypotheses I entertained for many years was that of a major or major catastrophes making rapid changes to the surface of the earth. It was difficult in the field to try to reinterpret the field evidence to match this hypotheses. There just wasn't enough to back this king of thing up.
What really swung it for me was my first reading of "Fairweather Eden"
It was my first reading of a very accessible and detailed book on an archaeological dig.
It gave me insights into the processes involved when discovering documenting and interpreting the evidence that lies preserved in some very special places on the earth. It rekindled my interest in stone implements and sent me on an archaeological quest of my own.
Since then my thinking has swayed to evaluating the many and varied "creationist" and "catastrophist" hypotheses.
The journey has been wonderful and fruitful. I am now very comfortable with an all powerful Creator utilizing simple natural processes like evolution to bring about His marvelous ends.
I take issue with the word 'Magnificent' here.
Presumably he created the natural process of evolution if you believe in such supernatural creators, no? If that's the case, why is everything so flawed and broken?
Case and point, The giraffe's laryngeal nerve that, at some point in the past got stuck and lengthened as the neck got longer to travel all the way up and back again to its destination, inches away from where it started. You can trace this back through the giraffe's ancestors and determine how and why this happened - It was simply cheaper, after 'making a mistake' if we are to humanize the process, to keep going incrementally than it was to completely erase everything and start with a new evolutionary blueprint.
If this God created the giraffe through a process he created, why so flawed? That being one of millions of examples.
My other issue with this is why would humans have souls but not pre-humans or other apes or any animal, when we're all just abiding by a natural process. Does God decide at a particular point to imbue us with souls, right around the time we become capable of sacrifice, war and torture?
Why is this natural process full of things specifically designed to kill us and put us in grave pain; insects that evolved specifically to burrow into the eyes of children and then eat its way back out for example.
This brings me to think of the famous conundrum by Epicurus:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
The only argument for this is that whatever God does is by definition 'good', in which case your use of the word marvelous applies to all the evil out there in the world that God created; the Golden hoarde that were awarded souls who then proceeded to, when a war was won, gather the women and children and force them to lie in the mud, then build wooden platforms over them, park all their horses, men and supplies on top for the night and celebrate, all while crushing their bones into suffocation.
Is this, like evolution, by definition 'magnificent'? Or is god unwilling or unable to prevent it?
God does not prevent evil because evil is necessary to accomplish His "marvelous" ends. Refinement occurs in an environment of adversity, a stone is polished by grinding, metal is hardened by beating.
As you rightly point out evolution is an imperfect process and produces imperfect results. It is this emergent imperfect world we live in that provides the very crucible in which we, as the offspring of God, are forged and gain experience.
One cannot fully comprehend sweet without having tasted bitter, one cannot exercise choice without at least two alternatives, evil exists that we may comprehend good and learn to prize it.
If you're interested in the scriptural basis for this I quote below:
2 Nephi 2
Hmmm. … scriptural basis … Respectfully, @gavvet, to help with any misconceptions our fellow Steemians might have from reading this, would we be able to agree on something? Specifically, that applying this adjective to this book would be okay primarily, if not exclusively, with members of the LDS church?
New to your posts and reading this, I am wondering whether you are an active member or at least very interested in this church. Assuming so, your sympathetic view of evolution is certainly understandable. I recall a phrase, from my youth, from the LDS church. While perhaps not an exact quote, it says, "As man is now, God once was; as God is now man may be.” You may be familiar with it.
May I humbly suggest our fellow Steemians might find a major challenge supporting this statement from Scripture?
Thank you for this post and your comments @gavvet. I have upvoted it and am now following you!
If this is the case then humans have become 'better' in spite of God, not because of god.
He created a situation of perpetual suffering, then laid out the rules of the bible which presumably we can just completely ignore and let natural selection and later technology do the work, no? I mean, I'm an atheist yet I consider myself a far kinder and thoughtful individual than many of those christian bigots I've met and read about who study the bible, the same as many other non-believers, so clearly the bible isn't necessary to guide us in any way, it can guide us either on a dark path or a light one, depending on who we are as a result of natural selection and genetics.
In fact, we've defied the bible in so many ways as a global society yet pushed to a far better place, that it's another example of progress in spite of efforts from God to thwart us.
Furthermore, I think the level of suffering from nature is pretty excessive if the only motive is to make us appreciate the good stuff. Thousands of generations of torture, disease and God's own personal (very human) issues - many of which actually created by humans themselves.
How can one reasonably worship a God that decided this was the only reasonable direction to take to reach a magnificent end? Why not simply leave that out of the blueprints? If these things cannot be understood by mortal humans, then I see no reason why we should bother following their lead, as they take us through countless millennia of horror and despair that only really existed via his own product; the soul. The only logical approach - which is all us humans have to go by - is to abandon such terror and guide ourselves with science and understanding of the world and each other.
This happens irrespective of any greater power, evidently. Ergo, to me, God's only input in our existence is to make us suffer. That doesn't sit right with me, and I find it odd that anybody could keep it on faith that eventually something magnificent will come out of it all, history just doesn't support that premise.
Hope this makes sense, stream of thought unplanned
Edit: I realise this is probably not the place to be having such a potentially sizeable debate so I might just make a pondering post about these thoughts instead
My understanding of God and his purposes is a lot broader and deeper than you describe, therefore I find Him palatable. I can see your point of view in not wanting to believe in the god you describe. If that were my understanding and level of perception of him I could also likely choose the atheistic route.
However there is more than you describe and bigots etc. are found amongst atheists and non-believers alike. They are likely representative of the ratio in the rest of humanity... simply more noticeable because they profess a higher standard.
I must confess I've never actually read a bible (Other than what I was raised with in CoE schools) and generally find it hard to engage with individuals since there's always this kind of thick red line between 'us and them', so I'm obviously somewhat biased and ignorant of the deeper levels that you claim to be aware of. Something for me to think about =)
Well said, and the stream is oftentimes the better way 😀
Fascinating example, this one about the giraffe. I doubt it will convince any creationist though, just like the eternal debate about good/evil, because... hey... FAITH! :)
Well, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just philosophizing, get a better understanding of a different thought process. It's fun =)
Is there a part 2 coming ? seems like this post stopped in the middle pf the thought process.
The last bit didn't load up fully, edited it... It is there now
so your conclusion was , evolution did happen but probably god was involved?
Meme, this GIF got me laughing like haaa...
you validate my choice of gif.. I upvote your comment.
Thank you. Did I tell you? I just downloaded the two Gifs
Or it's a short post.
I think the idea is well explained. He was educated in creationism, then read a book that changed his mind and now believes that God sent the universe into a magnificent plan that ended up with evolution and all we have today, so both theories could be right. It's a common philosophical view that sprouts from intelligent design.
As it turns out there was text missing.
The quest for knowledge never ends.
Glad "Fairweather Eden" sparked that zeal in you to go out there and search though archeologically for you.
And yes, the Almighty Creator has been very efficient in utilizing the simple processes for marvelous ends.
It is only a pity that most have not discovered the power behind evolution but think it is am end unto itself.
Was your childhood and adolescence under the apartheid in South Africa? did they impose creationist education or was it after?
You say teachers preaching about anti-creationism "should have known better" did they get punished for spreading a dissenting view?(the truth lol)
Yup apartheid SA. I wouldn't say impose creationism... evolution was just downplayed or left out of the curriculum.
The teachers that should have known better(IE) as educated educators used other subjects times to take cheap shots at evolution. In some sense considering it their religious duty to warn the masses.
I guess I should count myself lucky then, even in my country full of Catholics, evangelist and Jehovah witnesses, I never heard about creationism once in school, I was always taught science and Darwinism.
I did hear about creationism on biblical class but that was not in school, my mom took me there every Saturday but I usually escaped until she stopped bringing me there altogether lol
I've never read Fairweather Eden, but I'll take a peek in a couple minutes.
My exposure to creationists has always been a bit sour, as they always seem to make an effort to be offended by people's "education", as if the theories of evolution (which are now very past the stage of hypothesis) were just lie-sprewing by satanistic indoctrinators.
I instead take it as an offense not to practice critical thinking and weigh down the different possibilities and try to deduce the truth out of the data (instead of hiding from the data as if it were to hurt your beliefs somehow).
It's a decent read
at my childhood
my favourite subject was biology
Fairweather Eden is also incredible book that i like
Evolution has been called the cornerstone of biology, and for good reasons. It is possible to do research in biology with little or no knowledge of evolution. Most biologists do. But, without evolution biology becomes a disparate set of fields. Evolutionary explanations pervade all fields in biology and brings them together under one theoretical umbrella.
Hi my name is your post being beautiful
💜💜
What is this now?
Lol 😂
😂
I always thought it was about scientific issues. It is possible to see it in its beautiful articles.
have a nice day .. my friend :)
You yourself were an evolution in your own story. Weren’t you? 😉
How amazing it is that our love attracts us towards itself even when we are nowhere surrounded by the idea of it.
My interest was philosophy, spirituality and poetries but I studied commerce and did Bachelors in Business Administration!!
But look at me now, I write and read about the things I love the most.
And the most shocking thing is that nowhere around me was into these fields.
Your interest in biology and evolution reminded me of this.
This proves that No matter where you are, your true love will find you somehow, whether it be a person, your job, your work or your passion 😇😇
I evolved from you.
intrigued, the best is yet to come.
This book really looks interesting to read.I will also try to read this book. Thanks for sharing @gavvet
the creator, who has created the earth and its diversity of contents.
Hello. I liked your post, keep it up. Good luck to you and have a nice day :)
Very good
https://onsizzle.com/i/whats-the-difference-betweena-creationist-and-a-knife-a-knife-7430996
Lovely article - please have a look at our @cookwithus competition - we seem to be drawing a lot of South Africans to compete.
great article, I love seeming contradiction. Why must all our thinking be smooth and in harmony. I love serious debate but volume levels and passions must be under control. Further don't take it personally!
Do you copy and paste each post manually or do you choose and tell the bot or are you completely automated?