A proposal is being put forth to a vote of all staked SPS token holders to decide whether or not to begin burning unsold Chaos Legion packs on a daily basis. The Splinterlands team does our best to anticipate the demand for packs and set an amount that will meet the demand and last for roughly one year. As we did not anticipate the significant downturn in both crypto and traditional markets, Chaos Legion packs are taking longer than intended to sell out which adds downward pressure to asset values across the ecosystem.
Rather than waiting for the market to absorb the remaining ~4.7M Chaos Legion packs, we are proposing a change that will let the market determine the number of packs that are appropriate rather than our initial estimates.
This proposal seeks to start the "fatigue rounds" for Chaos Legion booster packs by burning 25,000 packs every day beginning on December 1st, 2022 and ending on March 31st, 2023 or until the remaining packs are all sold. Any packs still remaining on March 31st, 2023 would all be burned on that date.
This burning process would happen once per day, at a specific time of day (to be decided later), and packs burned through this process will simply be added to the total of packs sold for the purposes of Chaos Legion airdrops.
At the time of writing, approximately 10.3 million Chaos Legion packs have been sold which means there are roughly 4.7 million packs left unsold. If approved, this proposal would burn roughly 3 million of those unsold packs on a daily basis through March 31st, 2023, at which point any remaining packs would be burned and the set would be sold out. Obviously, the set may sell out sooner than that, but this proposal would add a maximum time limit of March 31st, 2023 for when packs will no longer be availble to be purchased in the Splinterlands shop.
We have previously announced that the next major edition of cards after Chaos Legion will be called "Rebellion" and we currently expect that to be released around the summer of 2023. Please note that we plan to wait at least three months after Chaos Legion sells out to release Rebellion so there will be a reasonable period of time between sets.
Finally, please keep in mind that once Chaos Legion packs sell out they will also no longer be available as rewards in daily focus / season loot chests. The replacement for the packs in loot chests is still TBD and will be eventually replaced by Rebellion packs once that set is released next year.
I think this is a bit extreme. Pack sales slowed down from the FLOOD of new stuff the team released at once... TOO MUCH TOO FAST. This seems like a very shortsighted way to address slow sales. Better timing of releases (ie SPACED OUT JUST A LITTLE) would have been a better move imo. Why not wait for land to be released and see how many cards get soaked up from that alone? This is jumping the gun. Plan ahead a little better with new release timing and you will see packs sales be more consistent. A lot of the community is tapped out from RW, TD, GLX RUNI etc. Give people some time to recover and pack sales will pick up!
I also like Dave's idea of replacing the LB prized with packs... kills two birds with one stone!
You guys need to stick to your mantra: LET MARKETS MARKET!!
Hey @fatjimmy, while I think your point is very valid about all the moves lately being extreme, I think the Matt/Aggy are putting out the issues they see along with their solutions, and really figuring out what the community would want (or not want). I agree it is not a good look though, and maybe its just part of the messy introduction of the DAO usage to make decisions.
My biggest point about all these proposals (some I will vote for and some I won't), is that they are all a symptom of the same problem. Collectively we felt (devs included) the game was taking off and hitting the big time. While we did make a lot of gains in recognition and certainly blew past the competition in many areas, I think the eye was taking off the ball on one of the core elements that will make the game successful on a grand scale: the new user and small user experience.
Like I said I give lots of credit to the Dev team for making some truly awesome decisions: the addition of personnel, the new game additions, the backend work on the dev side, etc have been fantastic. But we can't reach the masses until we also are able to not only attract, BUT TO RETAIN the new and smaller human players (not bots).
On the plus side I think @yabapmatt is squarely focused on that along with others on the team. I think they will pay much more attention to the complicated puzzle required to achieve the solution to this problem. I'm not sure they will admit this as they have the most popular and deep game in the space, but as long as Yaba focuses on this part of the equation then I believe all the great things they've done will shine even brighter.
Its not easy, but I have faith they will figure it out!
Yes you are absolutely correct it miss the small user experience.
Splinterlands done a really amizing offert to the Splinterfest and with a small user experience they would sure sell a lot of packs, but to take part in this promotion you need at least 16 million Dec and with this "small" (obvisiouly it is a very small amount for the splinterlands team) amount you got no runis, no CL-bonus packs from this promotion and only a few SPTD-Packs, so to get really a good package you need to have 160 million DECs.
That's the problem: The Splinterlands team is now so aloof that only people who want to invest five or six-digit dollar amounts are supported, actually only those where the amounts are six digits, everyone else is obviously not up to the effort value. But if you only rely on large investors and alienate all the small players, you will of course have problems selling your packs in the end, because there are not many who just want to put a six-figure dollar amount into this game.
But I have another suggestion also: You can buy a legendary potion for 40 DEC or a alchemy potion for 50 DEC, but in the end much player have them just in the inventar and don't know how to use them at all. If a pack cost 4000 DEC than it would mean 100 legendary or 80 alchemy potions. Ok you get discount with guild and so on, so let it be 200 legendary potions or 160 alchemy potions for one pack - I really think that a lot of players would exchange their unused potions for packe if they could do so.
In my opinion, Splinterlands is once again trying to solve a problem that they created themselves.
You mention some valid points.
For example the potion problem is real. Most players have accumulated a huge amount of potions with no use case at all.
I personally also wonder if all these presales with all the hype and all the discounts for first-time buyers are ultimately counterproductive, because some whales might then make a huge splash, but everyone else may think after the presale that they missed out on the best opportunities anyway and thus see no point of buying under much worse conditions?
How about simply offering products for sale on date x for everyone at the same conditions and that's it. Without any presales at all?
A good product should be able to be sold continuously, without having to appeal to human greed (who gets as much as they can first?) in such an extreme way.
Yes this is also a valid point. In the end you can say that a chaos legion pack loose worth with every airdrop who will take place. as you cannot get anything from the previous airdrops, so as player it is best to buy immediately all packs you need and than no more packs at all, what slow down the process of selling packs after the first hype.
if there not using any potions then tha means there not buying any packs ever and just take out of the ecosystem and never put in ..want to use the potions????? BUY PACKS THEY APPLY TO LL except Gladiators....my question is whats up with the coins kinda useless now dont get any as reward dont know any that go that route to get packs or buy potions when they give so many potions out now so the cin is just in the way now a goood idea would be that you could sell your extra potions for coins at least it would give the coin a purpose again...but hey who am i just a pee_on
That's just nonsense.
I already bought cards here when most players of nowadays didn't even know that Splinterlands exists at all.
I bought lots of packs.
Nowadays I buy assets solely in the market as my decks are build from pure gold foil cards only where it would be counterproductive to buy packs.
And yes, of course, I take out some of my winnings (after I put in more money than you will do in your whole life). :)
The rapidity of these economic proposals is not encouraging.
Definitely a lot of changes, but I think they are getting some good feedback. So while it might be a little negative for now, I'm happy to see they are seeing how people feel about things. That's the best way to improve... Listen! :)
I agree. Burning DEC and SPS is one thing. Burning assets is another.
In my opinion a better alternative would be rather than burn the packs, lock them in the DAO and decide what to do with them later.
Too much 'meddling' with the market right now... that's not a good look or a good idea as the team has themselves stated for years...
I agree with the main point above (There was too much new purchasable stuff added too close together). I don't think we need a burn at all. Lets not forget pack FOMO that hits when the last percent of packs are on sale. I suspect that happens around the One Million pack mark if not sooner. If wanting to remove packs from circulation give a set amount to the DAO either as a gift or as a promise to pay (have the DAO sell them one plus year after the set is sold out. The DAO then pays Splinterlands the company the agreed upon amount for said packs, DAO keeps the profit). Removing DEC from leaderboard prizes and replacing with packs seems like an obvious next move.
That is true but one loses the airdrop value that purchasing directly from the Splinterland site gives when purchasing from non Splinterland marketplaces. Packs that are actively being sold on the Splinterlands site have historically always been cheaper to purchase on 2nd/3rd party markets. This is because of many factors such as bulk purchase bonuses that lower pack cost and opportunities with the fluctuating DEC USD value. Once sold out on the official site packs usually take a jump upwards in price on all other markets or at least historically they have.
Edit: its also true that at some point each and every sold edition open value was worth less then the contents inside. Don't look at the cards in today's value. Think what they could be worth once out of print. My collections USD worth has mainly come from openign packs that had contents in them (at the time of opening) valued less than I paid for the pack. The same mindset should be applied to the undervalued Reward cards currently in print. Good luck on your Splinterlands journey.
Yeah totally agree. Like 90% of the world doesn't want to spend more than a few hundred dollars on anything in a single month yet they released loads of stuff at the same time
I like this proposal mainly because I think its great to have a "date certain" where there will be no more packs produced. Right now we think we have a lot of Chaos Legion packs, but one day we may look back and say "I wish I would've bought more packs before they went away".
The only thing I would add or change would be to replace the Leaderboard DEC payouts to Packs instead of DEC. I don't think this proposal stops that from happening, but with the focus on DEC production reduction, I think that would make a lot of sense.
I do not want packs for leader boards, only DEC please
Agreed but I'd also accept SPS
!BEER
replace all rewards with cakepop
DEC leaderboard payouts were supposed to be replaced a while ago but who knows what happened with that one.
Fantastic idea!
Lmao you wish there will become a date where "You wish I would've bought more packs before they went away" so you can sell your packs at a profit LOL
I already feel this way about untamed and DICE, and thought the same thing as you when I gave away and opened all of mine lol
Nice way to handle it and sell allow for the airdrops to happen as expected.
Very happy to hear we're sticking with a longer period until next set.
Also allows for newcomers to have plenty of time to scoop up however many CL packs they'd like to get from splinterlands or from the non-card market.
You mean.. because you didn't want to admit that over 300k of your DAU were bots and that you used poor data and judgement to justify the supply.
Now we're being faced with yet another massive overcorrection on SPL's part.
Why not give your previous proposal some time to witness its effects and also collect some data before dumping more proposals on a problem you could've avoided in the first place?
Let people recover a bit from all your recent money grabs and maybe then they'll start buying packs again.
"300k of your DAU were bots"
I always wondered about this when I saw a lot of similar user names with similar strategies.
From the sounds of it.. the majority of these proposals should be benefitting you directly so it's understandable that you'd take that position. It's a shame that can't be said for more players.
For me, this is a very interesting proposal. I think it is good because, as you say, the market is not the same today as last year when Chaos Legion was launched.
And we will still qualify for all the airdrops, right? I think it is a better solution to burn them gradually than to burn them all simultaneously. I'm sure that by the end of March, all the packs will be sold or burned.
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I think it's a good idea. It gives a definite conclusion to the set by completely satisfying players' market demand. It also allows for other expansions to be timed and launched predictably, largely when the game becomes stale.
Besides, this period until March will provide enough time for the current player base to acquire enough packs and cards to be ready for the game's next chapter.
It might boost packs in the secondary market, and it might boost the value of DEC closer to the intended value while, at the same time, reducing the overall inflation of assets.
You have my vote. 👍
I will support this proposal for sure. I think the market doesn't need the full 15M packs and this way the market will decide if it wants to buy out the full set before the burn date or not. Either way, I think this is a benefit to the community and having a hard end date is great for the sequencing of further releases.
I dont see a need to rush for Rebellion to come out. But i can get behind burning off some CL packs. So I will be voting Yes for this one.
3 months between sets is NOT "a reasonable time between sets". Think again.
I know you said "at least" 3 months, but I encourage at least 9 months between sets...
Do you want more or less?
Agreed, give us time to sell, given all my wild and current modern decks become pretty useless or lose financial value too soon
9 Months is a long time to have no packs for sale on the official site.
3-6 Months is plenty imo, with 6 being on the longer side.
4 months sounds like a winner -8 months of the year have packs
Another cut in the death by thousand cuts to small players who are still aiming to max their deck. I consider myself a small player but my investment is about $2,000 which is substantial in a developing country.
With this proposal, it will again favorable to players with maxxed out cards. Why can you just let the market decide?
There is low demand for CL packs because of too much products in Splinterlands which diffused many players' resources like Tower defense, Runi, Lux Vega, etc.
I of course expect bashing from top tier players, now go ahead.
I don't think these measures are intended to hurt small players. The point that they're trying to make is that they guessed too high on how many packs they should have created. In retrospect, they probably should have made only 10 million packs. The packs have to run out at some point, and unfortunately, whenever that happens, there will be people who wish they had more time to buy them.
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Where is the marketing to 9 to 5'ers so that we have lots of new people coming in to the game that will buy up these cards? Where is the bumper stickers, cell phone stickers, car wraps, popsockets, etc.?
Give me a car wrap with nice graphics and my QR referral code that can be scanned by the passenger in the car behind me or the person on the sidewalk when I pull up to a light. I do DoorDash full time so I drive all over the place in a 2022, it will get seen a lot.
If you are not going to do anything like that then let us do it. Give us the vector art or make a page where we can input some parameters and it spits out a bumper sticker or whatever, partner with wrapify... do something.
Give us vectors so we can carve it into a phone case or I can make a coffee mug with it with my cricut machine and my mug press. I can't find Splinterlands vectors anywhere. How about a heat activated coffee mug that has a card on it and when it gets hot it gets enraged stats? It's halloween for goodness sakes and you have what? Nothing for us to make.
Why do I have to jump through hoops trying to vectorize a splinterlands card bitmap and then it comes out crappy so I don't even try anymore so I can't make anything with it.
You could work with a talented laser cutter and come up with some standard splinterlands laser projects and license them out for low fees with glowforge.
How many hundreds of millions of blue collar workers are out there? 15 million packs is nothing compared to them.
I agree your general concept is right, but I also think they won't do it because they know the new user and small user experience needs a lot of work. They don't want to spend a ton of money on marketing if the people that join won't stick around. So my comment would be that you are absolutely correct that we could market to the masses and solve this problem, BUT I think they are just now waking up to the issues that those players would face. Its better late than never though, and I'm hopeful now they have figured it out then they will develop a much better experience.
I would have been all for this, but with the card level rewards proposal passing, I think I have to go against it. You're essentially saying "We're going to force you to level up your cards." Then you turn around and say "We're going to raise prices." The two add up to alienating real players.
Now I know this game is trying to cater to bot-running investors right now, but eventually you're going to want humans to play the game, and in order for that to be successful, you'll have to be able to keep them around. If you keep making it harder for normies to earn and purchase they will leave and quickly.
No increase in player base really but you release Runis, tower defence packs, chaos, riftwatchers and licences and you wonder why they aren't selling fast?
hey i am impartial to this vote. Can you please add a 'VETO' vote button so i don't get the vote message each time i log in?
Would hate to eventually just random vote on stuff to get rid of the pop up.
Allocate 0.18% of CL packs that's gona be burned to Splinterlands tournament as entry prize or prize pool (KYC tournament would be idle).
Definitely don't agree with this one. In his latest post's Yaba was arguing that raising ALL CL commons to L3 would create less cards than the current player base... and now you want to burn 3kk packs?? Even more when you already hinted that lands will require cards as well?
Honestly. what's the hurry?
Tower defense, gls, and the such, all are connected to Splinterlands and probably take some more funds from the player base; add that to a bear market and 4$ per pack and you have a possible explanation on why sales are slow.
Why not make promo sales in festivities, like @rentmoney suggested in one of his posts, (sorry for the tag mate, but didn't want to leave the good idea without the due credit), or add CL packs to the leaderboard prizes?
Plenty of ways to help get rid of the supply, but burning shouldn't be one of them. Will be voting NO.
Feel free to tag me whenever you like.
Holiday Pack sale (Could even require DEC to participate which will help stable DEC to its soft peg), loan packs to DAO with a promise to purchase (DAO can sell packs one plus year later at which time they pay Splinterlands for the packs given to DAO. Splinterlands the company gets their pack funds and DAO gets to keep the profit (its a win/win). Remove DEC from leaderboard replace with packs. IMO there's lots of options that trump a pack burn.
I'm buying too, but that doesn't mean that burning 3kk packs is a good idea.
What if you started burning Chaos Legions Packs only if a sales goal was not met. You can set 1 million sales per month as a goal. If 774,600 Packs get sold, 225,400 Packs will be burned at the end of the month. I prefer an approach similar to this.
i will vote yes, but what the team aren't also saying is if they recognize there's too much chaos legion packs , so they have to recognize also ,that the print rate for rewards cards are also too high. if the army of bots dont take so much rewards cards , the numbers only, maybe 40%. just food for tought.
How does this impact the airdrops. Would the burned packs be counted as if they were sold or are we losing airdrops this way?
Why the burning of Chaos Legion packs? The number has been decided so that every player gets sufficient cards and this has been stated from time to time but why change the decision now? Maybe we will get more players next year
I can think of nothing wrong with this proposal. Very well thought out the entire process, imo.
I don't like this proposal at all, so I'll vote - No. It will pass anyway of course. Just don't complain that the CL cards are too expensive to level or that the last unrevealed legendary CL summoner has a lot lower supply than the rest of them.
Now that we're going to start burning CL packs...buy DEC while it's 40% off -> buy CL packs -> wait for out of print -> profit
NOOO... do a Chrismess sell off instead....
I love this idea and think the amount of packs already sold is a heck of an achievement. The fact you are counting them as sold packs and still giving us the air drops is just icing on the cake. I would love to see some sort of black friday/holiday sale before this goes into effect. I feel like a sold pack, even for a discount or with bonuses, is better than a burnt one, at least for yall. I also see that could be abused to devalue the previously sold packs so maybe hook up all the holiday buyers with the corresponding potions.
Id also like to see Weird Beards idea of Draft tournaments, you have us pay like 25 bucks each and we get 10-15 packs, we then split into groups of 5-7 and open a pack, pick a card, pass the pack on to the next person. The cards then get lvl'd up to max, like ghost card tournaments, people play the tournament, and then keep cards after(the single bcx not the lvl'd up). It sells packs and drives engagement. Plus who doesnt building out a deck strat on the fly. Im guessing the amount of coding that would need to go into that would be insane so maybe for Rebellion?
I like this idea a lot.
It is a good thing!! I always thought that they printed too many packs and this is a way to reduce them and we will see a increase of value in less time... I am holding packs because I want to sell those when they are sold out at price of 10+ so for me is a good thing if it sold out fast
why those and not chaos legion?
I'm good with this proposal but DEC 1st? I hope they can do it by NOv 1st instead.
you cant change the rules constantly you are shitcanning investor confidence. Its like a 3rd world country in cyberspace,who invests in that shit.
I'm normally not a fan of the burn but I am here. Let's cut some fat in this bear market
Usually I'm a vote against kind of person. But I have always maintained, along with many that 15 million packs were too many at $4 a pop with a player base of only 30-70k at most. If the price was $3, they may have sold out already or very close to. Right now no one wants to spend $4 if they are most likely to get 4, 10 cent commons and a 30 cent rare right?! From an investment perspective, it's already short term finacial suicide against market value (and the airdrops dont improve your value much and yes most people do care about the value of their investment, you don't spend 1k,5k, 10k 50k or 100k on a p2e crypto game just cause you like it, just ask the whales who have frequented these forums in previous proposals) with no gurantee of seeing a positive long term return. I believe instead of burning or before burning having half price event would generate a lot of hype. At $2 a pop people would flood to buy the remaining packs and this would favour the newbies and lower tier/income players of which we need to encourage to stay in the game as most whales already have maxed out decks or collected their long term pack investment holds. Having said that, there is a massive oversaturation of Chaos and the need to burn them is recognised by many. I will actually support this proposal. It's time to start putting some deflationary pressure on Chaos cards. But I echo the sentiment of others that even those who invest big in this game are exhausted of finances between Chaos, Riftwatchers, TD and Runi etc. There needs to be a decent accumulation phase between the release of Rebellion or we will simply end up with the same problem the moment Rebellion comes out.
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Another solution could be instead of burning them, to lock them (or at least part of them) into a reward pool. That way they can 'sell out' with the only way for them to release is from players actually earning them from rewards in the future for a while. Packs remain one of the most valuable rewards that come from the chests. That being said, I don't mind the burn to speed things up since the print was just too optimistically high.
It feels like there are a lot of proposals landing all the time to try and fix card supply/demand, sps price, dec sinks etc. If we could just deliver land and rewards based on staked sps it would solve most of these issues? I don't think the game is so 'broken' that we need to make hundreds of knee jerk reactions to try and solve everything tomorrow... maybe a little patience and delivering the original plan might work best and unsettle less people. That said I have no issue with pack burning 😀
This is the first proposal that I will be voting: NO.
If I already had my summoners and tanks maxed maybe I'd feel differently.
Aggy: You don't have enough cards, trust me bro
also Aggy: Lets burn a 1/3 of the newest, cheapest cards for better roi
I have a proposal: No more proposals for at least a year, so that people who invest in either cards or tokens can actually have a clue how to value them and whether or not they are making a good investment. Every five minutes there are tremendous changes put forward that can have huge implications on investments. Just stop please. Or do a handful more in the next month then leave them well alone until after the next bull market.
I'll be against no need to force tokenomics right now
The thing is it is a short-term benefit, no real benefit that would matter in the next bull run may as well let new users get cards and have more money circulate in the economy.
I doubt Riftwatchers will sell out in a bear market so we will have another edition out and just have fewer cards. And fewer users if the packs are burned off.
Moving forward we are doing this anyways so letting this be a legacy of the old system seems fine.
A good point was brought up by my nephew. If we burn all these CL packs then those packs that are burnt are no longer eligable for the air drops that are to happen yet. This means fewer cards will be distributed reduceing the emmision of those cards. This makes Doctor Blight the most common drop of the airdrop cards as pack openings are also considered in the air drop rate. So how do they plan to adjust for that. I see no reason to burn the packs or remove them from sale. I say leave them up for sale and release the next set on the one year schedule between sets. So what if both CL and Rebellion packs are in the shop for sale at the same time. I can walk into any card shop and buy CCG packs from multiple diffrent releases in the same game and some of those sets are multiple years old. This way there will always be packs for sale in game and new sets can continuie to be brought out.
you ask us to be patient and you are not.
CL pack is good for news player. you sell them at first for 4$. what to you expect, i know you want money but at same time you sell riftwatcher, node, runi... long list.*you made money so!!!
let market doing his job, your game not gonna die. i don't gonna stop playing it.
we are in bear market as i know be patient too and let us mint all cl pack !
thanks for reading
Add: other choice add more pack in reward (daily/season), all player gonna love it more !!!
instead of burning it why not make an airdrop for those who hold sps and pack cards
Instead of burning the pack, why don't increase its distribution in the lower Silver level daily focus chest rewards? I understand the mechanics for burning the pack and all, but this way we get to encourage more of the newer players who are in the lower rungs of Silver to continue playing instead of getting frustrated with getting just tons of potions and merits as rewards.
Why would we want to do this? You guys are doing not a whole lot to bring in new players but releasing stuff for your current playerbase to buy nonstop, maybe give people a chance before rushing into the next thing. Chaos has a third of packs left and you're already planning the next sets release, why not let it run its course and then release the next set when its needed.
I've read some of the replies and I see a lot of good points on both sides, but ultimately I don't like the idea of burning assets. I feel like they could be put to better use.
After onboarding a new user recently, and getting a lot of feedback about the onboarding process, I'd rather see them used to help newcomers, somehow.
Yay let's take away more chances for smaller and new players to grow into the game!
(This is sarcasm btw) Doing things like this is going to kill the game as there will be no growth.