Would Steemit inc. be forced to change the rewards structure if we all went full asshole?
After a slow start, as is often the case without tens of thousands to invest, the last 6 months on the Steem Blockchain have been great for me.
I cannot (and probably should not) complain at all as I've been one of the lucky ones who's benefited from free/cheap delegation, and a host of up-votes from the few still choosing to share their large stakes around.
Thank you @fulltimegeek, @v4vapid, @acidyo, @anomadsoul, @demotruk, and @teamsteem in particular for this.
I am now 8 months free from sitting behind a desk stacked with monitors doing work that I'm trained to do, but of which does not interest me any more. Your generosity is the reason for this.
Who knows how long this will last, and at the risk of reducing this time today, my blog is related to a recent post (and so many others since June last year) by @kevinwong.
I invite those here to read this post and the comments made by @trafalgar first. And then the comments made by @teamsteem when I link the post again below.
To cut a long story short
Last year, Steemit inc. chose to fork the Blockchain and make changes to the rewards structure.
With the introduction of a linear reward curve everyone will have a say directly proportional to their stake.
Sounds good, right?
In the comments of the post, not everyone was so sure:
hmmm..
errr...
yeah...
And from another related @steemitblog post
Feel free to read @teamsteem's reply in the recent @kevinwong post and enjoy the further background reading from @dan, and memes from @felixxx
So let it be written, so let it be done
If you successfully made it back to this post, and I don't blame the ones that didn't! What else is there to say or do, as more and more accounts join the self-vote club, or loan out their stake to Bid-bots, as predicted last year by many?
Is there any point continuing to pretend to be 'in a world where honest people who don't vote on themselves to get "free money for nothing"', when this (to some) clearly wasn't going to be the case from the start?
Each day that passes without a change from the top, my doubts increase.
So much so that I've gone to the trouble this morning to calculate roughly what my monthly returns would be like, should I go 'full asshole' with my current Steem Power of around 14,000, and get away with it.
Taking into account that I could vote 10 times a day, and the average value of my 10 votes being $2.59, the STEEM value of this would equate to $77.182.
Multiply that by 30 days, and kindly remove 20% for curation (did i mention the word 'roughly'), the final sum for the month would be $1852.368.
Personally, I could live off this easily. But if everyone was to make these calculations, I'm 97% sure that 97% would not feel the same.
The majority 'active' stake is held by few, who have seemingly resigned themselves to the fact that this is the way it is now - self-vote because the code allows, and this gives the maximum return on investment.
As @trafalgar openly writes:
I'm guessing many whales are in the very same position as myself: we don't want this to continue. Unfortunately, we also can't trust other large stakeholders to refrain from the allure of profit maximization, so we all protect our own stake by partaking in the very activity that's deteriorating our investment. It's tragedy of the commons in full swing.
The issue isn't that bots or individual actors are malicious or greedy; very few people invest in crypto for altruistic reasons. When designing an economic system, you must assume everyone will attempt to maximize profits. When individual efforts to maximizing profits contribute to the value of the whole, then it's a successful system. But when the optimal profit maximization strategy under your system undermines the value of the whole, then you have a flawed rewards structure, that is to say misaligned economic incentives.
The entire economic system cannot be designed to depend on the selfless sacrifice of moral saints paying a high price in order to just keep in check the perfectly rational actions of individual profit maximizers, which is where we are now and why the battle is failing.
As much as I want to, I can't really argue with him.
Are the selfless delaying the inevitable/essential?
So while the few good souls continue their altruistic behavior, are 'we' (check self-vote % and free delegation status) just frantically shoveling water out of a steadily sinking ship?
What if we ALL went 'full asshole' for a week to perhaps finally prove the point that the current algorithms aren't working, and force the changes that seem necessary at this point?
Would Steemit inc. act on this, knowing existing smaller accounts and new blood (without investment) would lose all hope and not touch the place with a barge pool?
I shall take these thoughts to the beach, because for now, I ain't changing.
Cheers
Asher @abh12345
I can't wait to see linear reward being reverted.
I wish this post was on the trending page.
Is it happening? I just want to see something happen, because the future isn’t looking good for steemit if something doesn’t change, and I do love this place, despite its faults.
Do you think it will happen?
Thank you! As much as i'm not such a big fan of the Trending page, I will take that as a huge compliment!
This is mostly just furthering what you have done to increase awareness on the subject, and i'd really like to see an update from yourself on what you think will (have to) happen going forward.
Thank you @teamsteem!
All valid points.
The question is whether the only thing we have to fear is fear itself?
It all comes down to expectations. I am very open in that I do not like the marketing of STEEM by many of the members who are on FB and YT. They promote the money aspect of things. That is setting people up for the idea they will make lots of money (like $15K in 24 hours). Instead I feel we need to promote a lack of censorship (although it exists to a degree), decentralization, and the taking part in laying the foundation for a total societal shift.
The challenge is we are still in the age of scarcity that the banksters erected. We are moving towards the Age of Abundance yet few can see it. They are still tied to the greed, fear, and take take take. It is going to take a while to shift.
Fortunately, cryptocurrencies in general are creating a lot of wealth for people. We are also seeing other measures spring up that are starting to focus upon the overlooked and suffering.
So where does greed end? When the motivation is money and you have people conditioned in the scarcity mindset, it is going to take over. The ones you refer to in the article, with the huge SP, it doesnt take a math whiz to figure out what they will net if STEEM moves up to even low double digits.
There is hope...the fact that more people are moving up, albeit slowly means that the system will distribute the wealth to others. To me, the worst cog in all this is the fact that the sign up process still only lets a hundreds of maybe a couple thousand new accounts through a day. I believe the interest is there yet the process is bogged down. I am wondering if this is by design.
If the blockchain had 10M people with 500K active each day, much of what is discussed would not even be an issue.
I agree for the most part. But STEEM started with a massive problem of initial wealth distribution that actually came out of mining. There are many whales who neither earned (via proof of brain) nor purchased their stake. They just mined it. We lacked proper initial distribution.
I’m so happy to see people talking about betterdistribution. I don’t know much about math but it seems pretty obvious to me that the more distributed the power is among individuals who care about others and contribute to the platform, the less of a problem we have because we can pool our efforts to steer the direction of the platform, rather than being forced to trust a few ultra whales and witnesses that they back up to work it out. Since I’m not good at the math though, I mainly focus on the human aspect and helping keeping great content creators here and bringing them together.
I think whatever that's going to be based on SMTs are going to have some better distribution. We could even end up seeing people using SMT based sites/projects more than STEEM itself. If this ends up happening, the initial distribution problem will be more or less taken care of. STEEM would keep increasing the value while SMT projects creating better communities through better distribution.
It was really stupid to mine STEEM in the first place. A pre-mine and a faucet would have been a far better option. NANO actually did this and it ended up well.
I've read about the lack of proper distribution, but don't know enough of the mechanics to discuss other methods that would have worked better.
I'm no expert either. I think EOS did a great job with distribution. I think public mining was a disaster. Proof of Brain with somewhat high inflation would have done a decent job coupled with a lengthy auction of STEEM like the one EOS had. People have incentive to be early adopters as there would only be a short high inflation period and those with deep pockets would actually have to pay for their stake and more demand they create, higher the price would be for Proof of Brain crowd. Nothing is perfect. But that would have made things better.
Also a faucet that reward people for http://steemitboard.com achievements would have been nice too. That's just my suggestion.
Hey @taskmaster4450, would you mind elaborating a little bit on this:
I'm wondering what you might be referring to specifically, and how having more people on with a limited sized reward pool would actually make what we're discussing no longer be an issue?
Just to be clear, I'm only seeking to understand how that can be, so I can better understand how this platform works.
Also, from the last video the Steemit crew did as part of someone's interview, one of them said they've been manually processing the accounts. I don't know if that's still going on, but it sounds like it. And since they're planning to open the flood gates with HF 20 Velocity, it may continue that way until the HF 20 drops.
Most of the reward pool goes to the authors. The more people who sign up, the more that pool is diluted. This means the distribution of the newer tokens favors the smaller accounts since there are more of them. In short, the few large accounts cannot produce enough content to deal with the overwhelm. They could vote bot all they want, instead of $600 on a trending page, they get $40...still a nice sum but not the overwhelming amount they have now.
This means an acceleration in the distribution of the tokens. The whales, as a whole, have been getting weaker over the last year. They experienced significant drop in their percentage of ownership. More people will make it go down that much quicker.
As for the manual sign up, I believe it is still in effect. You could be right that they are waiting until HF20 before changing it. I saw a video where they said they had something else they were working on...I guess it didnt pan out.
Okay. So more smaller accounts, the less there is for the bigger accounts. So that helps the smaller accounts, but not sure how that keeps the bigger money here? Delegation maybe? I guess it would depend on how much each smaller account is getting.
Okay, well, that helps explain that.
Interesting on the thing they were working on not panning out. I should probably check that out, too. :)
This an interesting aspect of growth that I hadn't considered, but surely the degree of dilution of whale rewards depends on the ratio of rich to poor people signing up? I.E. if for every 100 'normal people' who sign up, we have one multi-millionaire haejin clone things just stay as they are?
This would make sense to me. Hopefully this isn't the ratio we are looking at!
Could the fact that the bigger accounts are experiencing that drop be another reason why they are upping the anti on profiting via the self voting etc?
Thanks @taskmaster4450, a thorough response as always.
I'll pick this one out as I think it's really key - we have the chance to bring this age in, but it will need a majority to realise it - old habits die hard as they say. The above names can see what you see, and I'm pretty sure they will all hang on to this vision until all hope is gone - which is not yet.
Signups don't worry me too much at present, but as we saw over Xmas, there is a bottleneck in the process. Bandwidth took a hit then too and so I guess these are related.
Thanks again, keep trucking :)
Agreed. Monetization is an essential part of this platform and why many of us are all here but by overemphasizing it we fail to build a culture of cooperation and honesty, as many people are still stuck in a scarcity mindset.
Steemit does not care.
It did not care before and it does not care that it does not work either.
Just keeps pushing SMTs.
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Thanks for this post, @abh12345.
I had read the post and comment section you mention yesterday and I must admit I was all confused afterwards.
Because I inderstand what the guy says. And sometimes I start doubting too. And then I write a post, spend 6 sbd on upvote bots and then I feel guilty about doing so for two days...
Earlier this week someone called me stupid because I did not selfvote.
And he was probably right.
I took away all my delegations to bidbots, and I’m not selling my votes anymore.
I have delegated a lot of my sp, but the only returns I have are the small delegation profits from Trufflepig, and some small upvotes from for example sbi.
i’m hurting myself here financially. I could be earning good money by making different choices. And sometimes I wonder why I don’t just play along and think of myself first.
I’m glad to know I’m not the only fool around here..
And maybe I’m in denial, or just plain naive, by believing that the ‘pay it forward’ mentality will continue to raise a new generation of Steemians with a different mindset. I only hope the platform will survive long enough to make sure these people have a chance to grow their accounts an get a little influence
Yes you perfectly sum of the experience of people with actual moral principles. I keep seeing this problem framed in terms of money you "lose" by not being selfish. But that assumes you actually have, could have, or should have that money. As you point out, it doesn't work that way for people who see the truth.
There is a lot of money in prostitution, so I hear, and few barriers to entry. I have some idea of the caliber of prostitutes in my area, so I know its not necessary to be young or beautiful. But it doesn't fit with the truth of who I am and what I want for my family, so I never think about the prostitution income I am losing. I was never going to have it anyway.
Good point, @wholeself-in.
Your comment was perfectly timed, as I was just starting to doubt my decision to not use the bidbots anymore. :0)
You’vr pulled me
haha :) That was me towards the end of my bot activities - oh the shame! I actually consider myself using them worse than self-voting these days, but each to their own of course!
I think you are at a point where you can still choose which road you want to take, it's not too late to try another way and probably not crash STEEM too much :) You need to do what makes you feel most comfortable, or the fun will fade very quickly.
With the witness thing going (and death threats from @paulag) if I 'turned rogue', I wont be testing the waters unless there is a major swing in feeling from the guys I mention above.
re: the last paragraph, I have the same hopes as you. Which is why I'm still here, doing what I do.
Cheers.
One of the things that keeps running around in my mind is the comment in which was said that there were a bunch of people that maybe wanted to change, but they couldn’t trust each other. I understand, because if some give up, and the other simple keep on doing what they are doing, there is no solution, only loss for the ‘good guys’.
I see this message mainly as a good sign, maybe mindsets are shifting. I hope so, because I can not understand how you can keep on doing things of which even a newcomer can see that those are eventually going to kill the platform, and simply don’t care.
If the platform dies, so is the flood of money these people are taking...
Earlier today, I made my final decision: no more bid bots. Be the change you wanna see - lol
Leaves me with the next issue: community bots and community upvoting ‘requirements’. These last ones are no different than the so called ‘circle-jerks’ everybody is accusing the whales of...
OMG, there are so many things wrong with this platform... it’s sad, really...
It’s a shame so many awesome people hang around here, or I would probably be long gone. ;0)
I wonder if the creators were really so naive, thinking that the peer-to-peer quality reward system would actually work, and that there would be no people who would try to game the system out of greed. I can hardly believe that...
And you see, I've had the exact opposite thought, which might be assigning them more credit than any one really deserves.
What if this was all set up to see exactly what people would do with it? Aside from the code, there really is no governance. There are pages of etiquette, and plenty of users who buy into one philosophy or another, but really, the only tools that we ever get to do much of anything with seems to always put the rewards in the hands of those who all already have it.
So, it's either a grand experiment to see how people, in a rather benign way, rise up against the nameless, faceless oppressors and overcome, or it's just a means by which unassuming patsies can come in and do grunt work so that those with control of the rewards can continue to make money.
In the second scenario, the rats have already abandoned the ship, but they're trying to take as much of it as they can with them. In the former, there's still hope. The selfless still have a fighting chance, we're just never going to know.
Either way, it's assigning an actual formulated plan to what goes on here that someone behind the scenes masterminded. Would I rather believe that there's actual purpose to what happens here and that someone actually does know what they're doing? Yes. But that means either way, we're hamsters on the exercise wheel running as fast as our little feet can fly.
I completely agree. It’s like I said hard to believe someone sets up somthing like this without purpose.
As things are looking now, I tend to say they could have spared themselves the trouble and just could have come over and I would have told them. But of course I wouldn’t have given them such a fat paycheck as they’ve given themselves - lol
But I also believe there is hope -maybe not for the platform or the main goal of the social experiment, but the selfless have a chance to fight every day. If I look around me and I see how many people adapt to the ‘pay-it-forward’-mentality, which is ‘taught’ by the selfless, it gives me hope for the future. Not on steemit, but I like to believe people take that mindset home, teach it to their children, pass it on to others, which will - in the very long run - maybe make the world a better place one day.
Now why didn’t I think of setting up this social experiment myself. I love social experiments. I would love to be the one looking into our hamster cage and watch all those running hamsters ;0)
Too much drama for me. Hamsters don't seem to play well together. :)
Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one with the conspiracy theory going on. The alternative, that no one knows what the heck they're doing and we're just on a runaway freight train or rudder less titanic doesn't give me any comfort at all. I'd rather be a part of someone's evil plan, and know it, then be a part of a meaningless series of unfortunate events.
Okay, I'd rather not be either, but... :)
I get ya :0)
I've been wondering the very same thing myself. Is this a social experiment to see how we actually behave given no governance?
It's super easy to draw that conclusion. It's also much easier on the ego to think there's an actual purpose to it all, rather than we've all been duped for the personal gain of some scam artists with computer engineering degrees. :)
I like to believe there's rhyme or reason to the randomness or the contrariness. Things that are supposed to do one thing either not doing it or causing something else to get out of whack. I'd rather believe they're trying to come up with difficult, near impossible scenarios to see what we'll do to prevail. Will we give in to destructive behavior, just quit, or find the sustainable and fair way forward.
As I said, it gives a massive amount of credit and brain power to a pretty select, fairly unreachable few, but when things don't work the way they're supposed to work, there aren't many more options to consider. And none of them are going to be any better than they're doing it on purpose. :)
Never say never, but I'm with you on this one right now.
Honest and correct - sbi, qurator, makeawhale, etc. Whales and obvious larger 'CJs' could point to these and state they are no different.
I'm a fan of all the above, and I don't complain too much about CJs - it's their stake, mostly.
Keep on going though - got to be in it to win it, or place somewhere mid-table :)
One small glimpse of hope: Dinosaurs did go extinct...
The selfish gene is what makes this platform it seems.
And I think it is eventually the gene that will break it as well then the selfless leave and the selfish turn to sockpuppet wars and phishing.
This platform is build by oppertunity hunters, not by humanitarians? Could that be the issue here?
It’s indeed the selfnishness that will eventually cause the death of this platform.
But then a new one will rise, created by people who wan to earn big bucks. As soon as they’ve completed their mission, they’ll abandon the project and more greed will take over.
Unfortunately, that's human nature,
And about the dinosaures: it took them quite some time to get. I don’t think I have enough time in
My life left to see that happen. Maybe my grand-grand children will
in a way i like to think that we 'disobedient steemians' have formed a kind of virtual group in cyberspace. that does not need a discord manipulation channel to think for us what we should be thinking.
The group of people who really think for themselves are just stronger by logic, ethics and the sharing of idea's.
I have experienced the internet before it became 'www' that normal level of communicating is what is missing these days. Not really missing i see likeminded people like us who find eachother. Yet the greedy basterds that have a 'corporate' mindset they really don't see what we see. We cannot blame a blind man for being blind. So we need to let go. Let them be.... We need to form our own steemit somehow. So that they can become circle bottomfeeders (?) I mean, i hope not, but once there are no more minnows to feed on then all they can eat is ... shit...? Not sure...
Once this kind of split happens, then we are no longer an annoyance to them and they nolonger are shitting in our water.
HOW? hehehe... OK i'll admit it. I DON'T HAVE A CLUE. :-D
Maybe the roots of your dreads have and idea stored?
To me it looks like we don't need to abandon as such, we merely need to agree to disagree and lead separate lifes? Sounds just as bad LOL...
Choice is up to them i guess, offer a REAL solution and keep us on board, or loose the very group of people that could have made it work.
I really appreciate this post Asher, but more so I do appreciate the awareness you are trying to generate.
Just so you know, your current payout is: $782/week x 4 = $3128/month
Doing this for 1 week (or more) with full tilt self-upvote might be worth the experimentation, it will mean you might have to sacrifice some popularity for a short time albeit the extra $1852/month income. But I think with sufficient communication to your regular patrons, most would understand, and, since a number are on your curation trail, it should be safe for you.
Unfortunately, it probably will not be for other sizable minnows and dolphins who arrived in the last 4-8 months that have little to almost zero curation followings but have successfully generated about 1/3 your income eg. $1000/month, purely due to have to churn out one quality post after another.
Let me know which week todo it, and I'll participate to proof the point to Steemit Inc. @Ned @Sneak or whichever powers to be.
Once again, do know it's a costly operation for active Steemians who are getting better returns from a base of larger size followers, and don't have curation following/trails auto-upvoting their post.
btw. Great job on the wolfie audit shenanigans, it's Steemians like you who convince me weekly not to totally give up on human (oversight and governance) on Steem
Not everyone thought so, and thus I appreciate hearing this from you. Thank you.
Apologies for the delayed response here, and thanks for your comments.
Honestly, I have no plans to try to initiate the above, but the post has raised plenty of discussion to keep me busy!
For me personally, it would take a group of people (aka the ones in my thank you note above) stating their intentions to go 'FA', before I changed my approach - And i suspect they wont (or they would have already?)
Thanks again.
Thanks for using the #nobidbot tag and raising awareness of this initiative!
I’m still not sure if n2 is the best solution but at least it’s worth discussing again because we really do need something to curb self voting and bidbots. I think a whole week would be devestating to the platform, 2 days maybe?
We should be encouraging people to act altruistically but the whole system shouldn’t be dependent on altruism, even those who care about others should still feel free to work towards their own benefit without it creating new such a massive gap in the distribution of power.
Let’s keep this conversation going!
No worries! I didn't know it was your creation, nice idea I will continue using it for most of my posts.
2 days / a week - don't think it would take long. I guess Steemit inc. are working on SMTs, HiveMind, and Communities as those have been top of the list for a while now.
When released, the next priority to me should be another look at the curation/creator rewards split (50/50?) and the rewards curve - but perhaps not implement them both at the same time eh? :)
I’m worried about a 50/50 split as I think it’ll encourage more curation based on who is popular and discourage whales from upvoting minnows even further when there is so much to gain from upvoting users who always make it to trending.
My creation? I guess! I have a lot of great ideas I try not to take too much credit for because I’d like collaborators more than followers. I also have too many ideas to focus on them all so I try to just put them out there and see what happens. Thanks to @bycoleman and yourself, it seems this one is taking off. I’ve been trying to populate a discord channel where we brainstorm solutions to problems at steemit (and perhaps some off steemit) and ways to help create more dolphins based on organic bahavior, quality content and contribution. It will also be a place for minnows to gather support on any project with greatly benefits other users. #steemitzombies #nobidbot and the Deadpost Initiative are my projects which I started the channel with but I hope to see people coming up with and populating their own chats within the channel. We’d love to have you there.
https://discord.gg/RmE6mG5
Possibly, but the very best curation rewards lie in spotting a post early - most whale posts are covered with auto-votes, which may change a little once the next fork arrives.
Just has a look at the #deadpool post, another awesome idea!
I'll add the discord to my list, I'm not that active there but will try to pop in when I can - thanks for the invite :)
As soon there is a viable alternative, everyone who thought of utopia will be gone. The whales that are not out by then will be stuck here and listen to @jerrybanfield make another stupid "prediction".
I can give a rough estimate from my part of the woods:
Since hf 19, 3 of my regular buddies has powered down entirely, 2-3 are totally passive. 4 has delegated away their stake more than 50%. That is one terrible blow to my neighborhood.
And of course most are more interested in bid-bots than me.
Steemit is or will be unsustainable. But I'm sure some celebrity will pop up shortly and sugarcoat the inevitable collapse.
That's a tough tale you tell man, time to get yourself a new neighborhood I guess.
Best to stay clear of the celebrity hoods though, I can see you losing your temper there!
I'm not down and out at all, just posing some questions to see what others were thinking.
I've been around a little under four months and I've seen the same thing happen with folks who've been here longer than I have. They've stopped for one reason or another, though I couldn't say it's all for the same reasons. Most didn't have a big enough stake to really warrant powering down. So, anyway, I think there are many of us where are our initial circles have dwindled.
I've been thinking about this issue lately - and I can see from the comments that I'm not the only one.
I still need to write a reply to @trafalgar, becuase I still think he's abrogating his personal responsibility for his actions. But I do agree that things appear to have gone wrong at the system level.
My thoughts for a while have been that an important tipping point will be the amount of SP delegated to bidbots. I think that marks a decent into the more purely 'rent-seeking' cycle that @krnel alerted me to. My worry is that once we go past a certain proportion of SP being tied up in bidbots, the associated 'regulatory capture' of witnesses will mean that nothing will change until something really drastic happens to the steem economy. Maybe we aren't quite there yet, or maybe we've already passed that point.
Here's one thing; we need to be aware that our measure of success might not be the same as whatever @ned and Steemit.inc are using. And it certainly isn't the same as some investors, both large and small, who are not interested in content at all and appear to only be interested in making money while they can, (as well as ensuring someone else is left as the bag-holder).
Anyway, I agree that the steem ecosystem won't hit its full potential, or even survive, if things continue the way they are. Will hf20 and SMTs (whenever they actually happen) fix this, or just kick the can down the road? Too soon to say.
I do suspect @ned is aware of these problems - but this is based on him liking my reply to one of his tweets, so I wouldn't get too excited. That said, this should remind us that there are more ways to rock the boat than just go 'full asshole'. Attracting the right investors and new users is much harder to do with difficult questions messing with your social media vibe.
Thank you for this great response, a new follower you have :)
@krnel writes really well, as do you and I can see why you've picked up on his work.
Tough to say, I did report that in-excess of 30 million SP is voting x10 a day if you collate all the Bid-bots SP today. That is rather hefty, but I don't know if it's past the point of no return yet.
https://steemit.com/steem/@abh12345/who-will-create-the-content-for-the-bid-bots-to-promote-in-the-future
Check the links at the bottom of the post - these are my more recent bid-bot contributions.
I think a fair few of us are pinning some hopes here - and why not - the idea behind SMT is totally excellent.
I would secretly be hella excited (but not tell anyone) if that happened to me :)
Thanks for the reply, good stuff!
I wonder what steemit will be like with millions of users. It could just be a mad scramble for cents. For some people a few dollars can make a real difference. This platform can change lives and I'd hate to see that opportunity squandered. I just don't want to see it descend further into shitposts. It will be interesting to see if the real big players in media production want to join up. I'm just along for the ride
Well I'll be joining you for the ride :)
Just a couple of hypothetical questions today, I know you are on the same path as far as delegations and the like. This is the road that helps me sleep at night.
Glad to hear about the beach @abh12345, coz I wasn't sure at first where you were heading :D ... you know, either there is abundance, or there isn't. If there is such a thing as abundance in the Steemniverse, then stressing over chasing numbers and rep and crypto etc is unnecessary. If there is a perceived need to accumulate, then there is an accompanying fear of not having enough. Wonder what is enough anyway, and whether one can relax when it is reached!
For what it's worth @abh12345: you do not seem to pursue steemitlife in the above acquisitive manner; you also seem to be saying that you have enough for your needs anyway (even without the arsehole income :). Over the past week or so, the posts and comments of yours that I have read seem to have a tone of conflict (RW!) and now, a bit of dejection. The actions of others seem to be affecting your state of mind (ok, this is based on tiny little snapshots) when there may not be any need for it. We don't know where this is going - it's still beta. Sure you have a much longer view of it (technically too), but the fundamental thing is that we can't change anyone who doesn't wish to change (if someone continues to hide/deny something, this is a form of resistance to your pointing it out and fear of it emerging; but what they do is not your responsibility), and perhaps they don't have best interests of the platform at heart. All you can do is state your mind and you do. I respect you for this, and for your position in general, such as I see it. If there is indeed abundance, then the only inevitable/essential is the demise of scarcity think and all the fear-based activity associated with it (bots, self-votes, networking for profit, writing for profit etc, rather than nothing - for free-flowing self-expression and the flowers in the vase :). Meanwhile, not giving your power away helps 🔆
Hi @barge, thanks for the comments you make.
I apologize for coming across negatively at times and hope that this is not the case for the majority of my text here, as it's really not how I want to present myself. I'm still a huge fan of this place, and will kick out the 'shill' and engagement posts too.
I guess a few recent pieces have not been that way, but I just wish for people to be honest here, and with the access I have (that we can all have) to the data, at times this does not seem to be the case - it's hard to turn a blind eye all the time.
I'll be looking into a food/cooking post soon (the first and the last!), and as the summer gets closer, riding the bike and testing the stability of the GoPro :) These post at least will have 0 charts/graphs, or mentions of wrong doings - that will likely present itself on the plate.
Cheers, have a great rest of your weekend.
Hey my friend, I didn't mean to give you the sense of having a go at you, not at all, it came from a place of empathy and I do not consider you to have anything to apologise for at all. You present yourself well anyway, it comes across pretty natural, I don't see you as just playing to the crowd. Not suggesting blind eyes be turned either - just that one's equanimity not be displaced by the actions of others. I think it is important to speak one's mind if the feeling is strong - it's a courageous act! You can wish for honesty from others (I do too), but we can only guarantee our own position of integrity regardless of what others do, and this needn't be affected by their different approach (which is why I was wondering where your post was going :). These post at least will have 0 charts/graphs, or mentions of wrong doings - if you are taking a break from this and focussing on food, bike and GoPro, let it be on @abh12345's terms, and noone else's! Nothing at all to apologise for to anyone IMO!
🚣
I'm positive these were not your intentions - we will both agree to not worry, ok? :)
Thanks again for the philosophical and well thought-out replies, I do enjoy receiving them.
🔆 🔆 🔆
I fully agree with you, the linear rewards have to go. n^2 might be too much, but n^1 is not working properly. That's why I support witnesses like @felixxx who want to change it - and so should any person caring about the long-term viability of our blockchain, imo.
Having read through his work linked by @teamsteem in the references above, I have also chosen to support @felixxx.
Cheers!
Thank you for the post. I see more clearly why I chose to follow you. I have been here for less than two weeks and am focusing on commenting right now. I am busy and this suits me just fine. On steemit I am able to find articles that I find interesting and as a self declared media junky, I have cut down on reading large media stories. I am the better for it! Also I get to give a little upvote, I like that. There are plenty of folks like me in this world. One of my faves on Steemit to date, @denmarkguy had a post about the ways and means of attracting content creators to Steemit. I know nothing at this point about Steemit, but perhaps the solution lay outside of the community, that is attracting content creators and those who follow them. My advice to anyone new here? Find stuff you like, follow and upvote and comment, simply support the work you like. More and more content I like is showing up in my feed now, I have not been to the Trending page in the last five days!
Thanks for the reply and I'm happy you mention @denmarkguy, who writes really well and has done for a long time.
Trending is indeed a write off, it's better to do what you suggest for sure as far as keeping your experience more joyful to you. Cheers!
I find it comical, in a sad way, that Steem Inc. manages to be about as competent as government bureaucracy.
They are on new ground, and wont always get it right - lets see what happens next :)
I would like delegation to be gone, and penalties for more than 4 posts to return. Then see how much linear is a problem... Maybe even 100% votes to be as 25% like they used to be (40 upvotes instead of 10 for 210% vote power drain)
If everyone who posts upvoted themselves at either 40% of daily total 10% of power (4/10 votes to self), or 10% of daily total of 10% power (4/40 votes to self), then that leaves 60% or 90% to otehrs in order to spend 10% daily voting power. I think that would already be better for the community.
I used to not self-upvote, even before HF19. I started an "Only-Upvote-Others-A-Thon" model to try to spread. Then bid bots started with BS making the first. I saw a problem starting. Then there were 2, and i stopped using steem shortly after. When I came back, there was so much less support going around. I had given 30,000 SP to @lyndseybowes while I was gone. I regained my SP shortly after coming back since the state of Steem was pretty sad, and I started to self-vote again because of the lack of support from so many accounts delegating for ROI and getting curation rewards, rather than the regular route of voting freely to get curation rewards. I see delegation as a problem in the current way things are operating on the platform. removing that would help get rid of some issues, some. Tools can be used for good or misused, and we have no way to deal with the misuse of many tools on the platform, like flag abuses.
Hi @krnel
Thank you for your input here, it is appreciated and respected.
Penalties for 4+ posts would be an ideal start, if there was governance in place for 1 person, 1 account. As we stand, I see this penalty as only a minor annoyance as it is just a case of logging on with another account and continuing.
The same point I think stands for self-voting. I see so many obvious (and not so obvious) alt. accounts being voted by the 'main' SP holding account, that I am not sure rules/penalties would change vote distribution. The pattern may look different, but the account receiving the funds would be the same in the end.
While I am totally behind Bid-bots not being a positive for the platform, I feel there is a case for delegation as being a positive. dtube/utopian/etc have brought new faces and interest from outside the network, and I think have had a positive effect due to the delegations they have, and thus the rewards they can give.
Delegations to bid-bots though have really effected some users returns, as they friends have 'sold out' in search of greater returns.
I feel the solution at this point is an adjustment to the rewards structure so that curation rewards are better, thus pulling out delegations from BBs. However, the return on a delegation is so high at present, that I am not sure how the model could be changed - I've seen suggestions of 75/25% in favor of curators/content producers!
Thank you for your time, and enjoy your trip :)
if you turn arsehole I will kill ya lol.
Asher I really enjoyed reading this post and your toughs on it. Steemit is full of arseholes that are killing this on them selves. Remember many of these are coders, not business people - short term gain, not long term strategy. They need to be shown a better way and they need to change how they are thinking. This wont be easy but as the power of balance begins to change it might be too late for them then
lol!
Just putting my thoughts out there! You know I wont be selling out, not unless there is a very strong call to force Steemit.inc to act.
Honestly, I think 'we' will struggle without help from on high - as long as it remains the best option financially, then this will make the most sense to the business people.
haha I'm with @paulag on this one Asher :)
I've also followed taskmaster4450 for some time, and believe in his idea of the Age of Abundance. It will take time, but people will eventually get to that understanding, and as an eternal optimist, I believe eventually, this will be a moot point. In the meantime, those of us who choose not to be an arsehole will continue doing what we are doing, and the others will do the same. I'm not sure there is anything that will change that...especially the "can't beat 'em, might as well join 'em" adage.
Thank you for a very interesting post!
I am firmly kept in line then!
I really hope we can make it there at some point, but it is seemingly not around the corner.
Take care of yourself and all, hoping there is sunshine where you are today. x
Perfect!!
As you know, thanks to Dave, there was sunshine all over the place today !
Personally, I just want a maximum hard-cap on the proportion of rewards any one individual can take out of the system; nonymised accounts, get rid of the bot market, and all of those other hideous 'socialist' 'interventions' that prevent anonymous rich people fucking every one else.
A 90% wealth tax on rewards per day over, let's say $100, would certainly get rid of the selfish.
I'm also aware that these ideas would probably be very unpopular, but what concerns me more is that I've no idea who I need to appeal to in order to get the system changed. I am absolutely powerless to implement major hardforks and thus any significant changes.
Could somebody direct me to a website/ post which outlines who 'steeminc' actually are (I know @ned obviously), who actually has the power to make the decisions to change anything? How many people are 'on the board'? Who 'has their ear'?
I know this is an 'anarchist' platform, but in reality it's a clique who make the decisions, so who are they? I'm sure there's a post somewhere, but I've never seen anyone point to it in any of these debate articles!
As someone says below... how do steeminc see steemit... an experiment, a test case, something to divest themselves off in 2019 or sooner, or when steem hits their target price and then fuck all of us because they've got their private jets? (I think they already got their lambos).
I could live off that too. Time to diversify!
Heh! 90% wealth tax, controversial! :D
nonymised accounts would be essential to control who's taking what. EOS have plans for that? or at least @dan did here?
Plan a monster reply for the next @steemitblog? Someone will see it and point you in the right direction, which could well be the door!
Diversification is a risk reducer, and I know from your blogs you aren't all in here. Personally.... yeah, that does sound like a plan :)
a - I recently sold 1/4 of my BTC and bought EOS with it. I've even registered (or whatever it is they call it). So I'm primed and GTG when that kicks off.
b - Crikey, if you can't point me in the right direction of who controls the hardforks, I'm worried!
c - Although I'm actually tempted to pump a serious chunk of cash in when I remortgage soon: borrow a bit more to do so. Not silly amounts, certainly no where near 5 figures.
Oh - and the 90% tax, may as well go in hard. Then it makes 50% seem reasonable.
Well Steemit inc do the work, and the witnesses consent - perhaps 10 of the top 20 is all that's required? But yes, worry a little!
C - here, or 'there'?
We don't even know do we?!? Perhaps 10 of the top 20?
C - Oh I'm considering investing here... that'll make an interesting series of posts.
Must get on with researching it all.
Ditto @abh12345 and, I suspect, even if I did change it would have very little impact, small as I am.
Great article and food for thought indeed.
I look forward to the replies from those more knowledgeable than myself!
Have fun in the sun and, no matter what, I really appreciate what you do here and . . . part of me loves the idea of you making enough to live off! 😍
aww thank you Gillian! That's very kind of you - I'm very lucky to be in this position at present, and clearly want it to last.
Just wondering what would happen if, and seeing if others would be willing to comment :)
Now I've made it through most of the view points and comments on all these posts I feel I'm left with the conclusion that whatever is done to try and fix the problems is going to leave at least one group of good people high and dry. No one is going to support a change that won't ultimately benefit them in one way or another.
It feels like if you give someone at the bottom a chance to be able to work their way up, then those who don't need the help will also jump on the bandwagon and use it to increase their own worth at an even faster rate, putting us all back into the same situation. If you ban them from jumping on, then where's the cut off? Those that don't quite make it on the wagon, but aren't wealthy enough to compete at the top level end up being the new bottom ones and losing out.
Human nature is any odd thing really. This current behaviour does seem certain to bring the site down and then everyone loses out. We seem to be self destructive. As long as we're benefiting in the here and now we can't look at the consequences of our actions in the long term. Not that the long term matters if you've made enough to tide yourself over to the next opportunity.
Hey man! Thank you for pointing this out, I mean, everybody or at least a lot of people will or have asked this question (and a couple more) at some point and I think I have something to say to them, and to many commenting here:
@steevc This is already an ecosystem that pretty much allows that but it's not really a dangerous thing, at least for shitposters to enter the waters and try them out before they get caught. But at the same time it is not about them at all. I know that it can be disturbing and something to keep your eyes out for. We have to make sure that we take care of the platform even more than our well being and that's kind of what @abh12345 points out in this post, but I seriously can't help to keep thinking the same thing: I haven't been around for more than 90 days on steemit, and of course, I've seen thousands of what you could call ab-users and shitposts, I've seen few posts making hundreds and a lot of good ones making barely a couple of bucks. That being said, I repeat, isn't what steemit is all about. Of course, you can monetize your works, your efforts, you can even upvote yourself at any moment that you feel like curating yourself, and you're basically doing just that, not just making a extra profit even though it seems quite like it, because it's your power to do so, more than the pragmatics and ways of thinking that we may or not share at all.
Money isn't really the issue I think, because most currencies at this point depend and are built on trust. Yes, of course, we need the biggest money injection of them all for the start, the development and to back all of that up. But a money problem can't even be so if the people behind it, or even on top of it still have followers, still are being read, and still want to share their work over here.
What do I really mean by all this?
I know that it can be frustrating to keep seeing dilluted profits, and actually looks like we're doing a little better now after a couple of what we could call rough months, but hey! I'm reading you, I'm not here for a profit or to upvote my comment. Neither are you, and neither are many of the great guys who are giving you their feedback every time.
I live in a country (yes, an entire country) where this doesn't happen at all. We don't interact, everybody just basically seclude at their homes waiting for something to happen, or for somebody else to fix their problems. And I don't see that at all over here. This was built by people, and as much as we can find problems and new issues with this platform, it's the one that brought us together for more than just a few reasons to do so. We're making a huge difference and that really is something. We're networking, we're building strong interactions and great communities, so at this point we can move or stay in any tool that we want or need, and we can keep growing exponentially by just this opportunity of getting together and build a trust of our own every day, and then wait 7 days to collect what we earn lol.
So, are we delying the inevitable?
I think so, I'm like you, but at the same time, I'm with you. I mean, everywhere you go you can't act like Hitler and blow the whole thing up: It's just a matter of time and progress to keep learning and realizing if it's worth it or not, your effort and your time. You can still upvote yourself and trust me, you won't be hurting steemit more than bad users are already doing. But at the same time you just don't want to just go full asshole because you care about people. You're no Hitler, and neither is many people who trust you, not the platform itself. We keep blaming on tools, on system problems, on things, and we pretty much forget that you are the change, you are the work; you are the possibility to grow. And there are always going to be problems and awareness of those who can quite see what you do and how you do it. So, keep keeping it real, 'cause I don't have trust or believe in steemit, I believe in the possibilities that people like you and the few commenting here have created for me. I don't feel ignored, I don't feel left out. I can feel my efforts unrecognized at times, but the truth is that we are having a voice right now, and steemit it's been perfect for allowing us to do so! Cheers and have a great week peeps.
A commendable contribution to the discussion, thanks @steamdan.
I appreciate you taking the time here to put forward your views, and I completely with you that it is on us to make this place what we want it to be - andthere will always be different approches that are taken.
I guess the like-minded will come together, and build their own collective view of utopia here - let us wish for 'here' to live long while we do so.
Cheers, followed 😊
Every system you want to talk about has faults and warts. The way I see it, we can either sit and complain, keep quiet and carry on or we can do something to change it. I came on board in June 2017. The last 6 months have been the worst with all the complaining. There a few of us who just want to curate, create content and live peacefully amongst the force's disturbances. It is becoming more difficult each day...
I am with @cecicastor on this. Live and let live. If someone invests tonnes of fiat and wants to revenue from it let them. I think that's a narrow and lonely approach. But, it's also not my style. I play with self-voting as a lil' guy, it's good to believe in my own content. But, am not sold on using it as a consistent method. I am so happy with the support and community growing around me. It's relationships that matter. But, i want to find a healthy balance also in caring for myself in this dynamic world. Overall, I am very happy with my steemit experience so far!! So hopeful about the connections of this community. I'd have voted this reply of yours with photo of you at the beach with full strength but I have lots of steeming yet to do this morning! Man enjoy that beach and allllllllll 🎶 it's glory for me please! Would ya?
Thank you Jill, it was a lovely day :)
I think we are all on the same side here, people will do as they please in an ungoverned and decentralized setup. I hope you are having a fine weekend too.
Did you have to rub in that ocean scene??!!! Hope you two are having a blast..grudgingly stated.
Yes, yes I did :D
Thank you, the weather has been lovely today!
hahaha!! Now that's a classic emoticon! @abh12345 ;)
hey I want royalties if it goes viral! :D
hahahaha!!! but of course LOL
Dude, the more you post things like this, the more likely all of us are just going to show up at your place one day. :)
You should have seen Jan/Feb/March 2017 :)
I'm sorry this post seems to have rubbed you the wrong way, I think I did more complaining yesterday and actually wrote above that I feel really look with how things have panned out for me in the past 6 months - I feel i'm just stating the lay of the land and hypothesizing, and hoping to generate discussion.
The beach photo was to show that I'm not a grumpy old sod, yet.
Well, don't become a grumpy old sod! I think when I had responded to your post, it was the 20th post I came across in my feed that was complaining about Steemit. I get grumpy when I see everyone complaining about not making enough money or that the bots are ruining steemit. Everybody complains but nobody comes up with a solution. Granted there is less drama here than on other social media. But it would be nice to return to a more even keel. And don't get me started on flag wars. Why can't we just be friends?
I'll try my best not too!
And I mentioned a solution :D - Everyone on Steemit self-votes until there is no choice but to change code!
You need a solution that everyone will follow. My experience is that you will have the regulars who know what it all about, then you have those stick in muds that just won't and finally, those who just don't care. Just my two cents worth.
I am definitely among those who want to post, comment and curate. The rest of this stuff is sideshow. Unfortunately, with the way things are set up here, it's virtually impossible just to keep your head down. So the question becomes, while we're doing what we want to do, how do we affect change? Or is doing what we want to do enough? I'm personally tired of complaining, so that only leaves the other two options left, and I don't have enough energy to wage full scale war for change and do what I want to do.
So, I'm posting, commenting and curating hoping that's enough for now. :)
That's what I am doing for now too. Just doing what I want and love to do.
Wow, that is a very clear perspective on the situation. I have read so many different points of view but you hit the nail on the head. Some change is needed and those with the most (the Whales) need to get behind it.
For everyone's info, @abh12345 is a new steemit witness so if u like his ideas, vote for him as witness under the name @steemcommunity.
The big accounts force the changes it seems, yes.
Thanks for the witness advertisement! :D
Good luck with the witness campaign. As you get more votes you probably would have a larger voice.
Good morning Asher. I came across the same post and felt unknowledgeable to respond since I didn’t understand linear rewards. Thanks for linking to the fork post.
My understanding is that in the past, the worth of an upvote had less monetary value because it was less concentrated. With the fork and linear rewards intro, the upvote value increased substantially and is now proportional to their stake. So anyone with a lot of SP back then became the whales now, especially if they self vote. I am talking myself through what a linear curve is and hope I have it right. 🙂
The sad truth is, the system is built now to reward this behavior. Not simply for self voting but also vote selling. I don’t know how long altruism could exist when the rich keeps getting richer (poor behavior is encouraged) and the gap between the rich/poor grows bigger over time.
The system is built for early adopters to come out the winner. They have the biggest stakes in the game. Anyone late to the game can strive to make it into the big league but let’s face the reality, it’s simply not possible. An honest worker working a 9-5 desk job in the real world can only get so far. A businessman with some savviness and wheeling and dealing will be the winner each and every time. Steemit is just like the real world except now, the platform is built so the businessman will continue to stay on top.
On a side note, I had to pause when I came across the first commenter you highlighted. I received an upvote on my post yesterday from said individual. I hope it’s because the person liked my post and not because of his/her involvement with MB.. because if the person is involved with MB, sounds like there is now a change in perspective with the comment made then and action taken now. So what does that tell ya?
Hey @beeyou :)
It's the evening now, but I was scanning comments and enjoying the sunshine as presented somewhere here!
Yes you are right and I agree with what you say - I think many of the 'believers' think (and may still do) that we could have had the begins of the 'Age of Abundance' here, but right now it seems to be stifled by 'real world' mentality.
uh huh.
The first person is FTG? If so, I suggest he would rather sell his soul to the devil than to MB. I checked your recent posts and don't see any names above? Maybe it is the wine ;)
Lol no not FTG. First comment you snippet to highlight thoughts on changes to the reward structure . Individual didn’t seem favorable of increasing the vote impact but seems to have benefited from it. Perhaps not via self vote but MB? Of course, the upvote to me could have been due to my talents. I get a few of those here and there. 😉
Enjoy the relaxing effects of the wine and have a good evening!
snowflake? A quick check in the wallet suggests minnowbooster action.
I actually slept terribly, thinking about the league post and all these replies!
Have a nice day, i think the league post will arrive in 8/9 hours.
I cringe on your behalf on the sheer quantity of engagement you have in store.
I saw the league post but my engagement for the day is kaput so I might not make my way to commenting there. As always, thanks for your work! I’m quite happy to not be in the top 10 but still somewhere up there. 😄
Enjoy your week off!! I’m sure it will be nice to be in the UK again, at least for a short respite until your next destinations!
Good points. In my opinion, the problem is that whales are using bots AND self-voting while already getting the most exposure. I have an idea for a solution. There should be a self-vote penalty on a post if it goes above a certain payout. That way, the poster still gets a sizable payout while discouraging whales from self-voting.
This would just force alternate accounts I think, and I believe this is happening at present - to stay under the radar.
Possibly. Identity quality is a real problem on blockchain.
This post is so good, I spent half the morning following the rabbit - hole. Determined three more of my witness votes, and used the day's VP voting various posts and comments. Thanks for not going full arsehole.
I'm glad you took the time to go and look around at the content from the guys that really know their stuff :D
haha, no worries!
In a way I wish you would go "full on asshole" and @fulltimegeek, for maybe 6 months, then we would have two genuinely beneficial "whales" that would have far more to give than you do now. If you get my point?.
Well for me it wouldn't work if we both did it as he's been a major supporter of mine with 360,000 SP compared to my 9000 :D
I'd be losing out big time, but have no choice if everyone was doing it!
Hey Asher,
I read through this article and all the related articles... and it all pretty much made my head spin. I'm not even going to pretend to know what the best solution forward is.... I just applaud everything you do that helps keeping people engagement and motivated to create actual good content.
I've got a question unrelated to this post completely.... I hope you don't mind.
So, with Bitcoin Blockchain technology... the miners basically keep a ledger of the transactions on their servers... that's the key to the decentralization of it all. It makes it unhackable because you'd have to hit every Bitcoin server at the same time.
In my head, that totally works for every current transaction (and explains the slowness of Bitcoin transactions)... but I'm not sure what that means for every past transaction. Does every miner have 7 years of transactions stored on their server (or is that what the individual wallets do?).
Bringing that back to Steem... as a witness, you process each transaction that happens on the blockchain (moreso if you're in the top 20) but does that mean you also have a record of every transaction that's ever happened on the Steem blockchain from the last 2 years? If not... where is that data kept?
Anyway, thanks for everything dude, you're a hell of a guy!
Thank you for the kind comments - I'm trying to do my bit, there are plenty of us like yourself doing what we can.
Not so many thanks for asking me this question! :P
I believe transactions to be processed/completed (such as the 7 day life of an active post/comment) are in memory.
Completed transactions are stored on the HD/SSD of Full nodes.
Help, somoeone! @paulag @jackmiller
Steemit is not the answer it once claimed to be. That is yet to come and there are plenty vying to take it's place.
As for me, I am just here to keep in touch with a few good people I have met, but I lose money( from wasted time effort and stress) everytime I contribute to the platform.
Steemit has simply created a digital analog to the failed Crony Capitalist system( not a natural free market, which is optimal) and as an Anarchist, I find Steemit just to be another problem contributing to societal ills.
Since I am not a coder, I sit and wait for a truly new ideal to be put into practice. One that attempts to promote some sort of ethics, without being a failed Oligarchy. Steemit is not Decentralized nor truly self governed, so is not my go to platform.
Not convinced, i see.
Seriously though, I see your point and it has been put forward by others in a similar fashion.
I'm not a coder either, so you'll have to budge up on the cheap seats and let me sit down while we wait :)
I think if we can all admit that morality cannot be legislated or even governed through computer programs, then we can all start to address the root issues: Greed begets more greed.
Does that mean those with a higher moral character are confronted with the inevitability that greed will overcome? If we surrender to that way of thinking then we are all doomed.
In my view, greed can be as greedy as they want. In my view the spiritual rewards that we are hear to learn are not dependent upon this physical realm. If people want to own or control it all then they will not receive the spiritual rewards that await those who can see past the physical temptations and learn how to control themselves and self govern. For those who choose peace, prosperity for all, patience, joy and loving thy neighbour as thy self, they are the ones that will receive the spiritual rewards.
So while people fight over fictional constructs and physical territory, I focus on something way more valuable and much less physically intrinsic. I care not about the wars that people fight here other than confronting the violence that they engage in. I for one, refuse to fight or engage in violence. But I will rebuke and help others to see the errors of their ways.
In the mean time, I do what I can to help others, share and pay it forward. I still believe that prosperity comes when our communities are strong and self sufficient. So I will continue to work towards that goal. The more people get off grid, grow their own food, etc, the better we will all be. If steem can help facilitate that, then bonus! if not, I still have a platform where censorship is not present so that I can reach people despite what the state or others think. That is why I am here. To reach people and encourage peaceful, non-violent self governance.
Those who engage in war have walked away and I pray they will see that it does not work and return. I will do what I can to ensure that peace and non-violence spreads. I pray steem can survive the greed and be a platform for reaching out and spreading that word. Either way, I trust in Creator and it will all work out, one way or another. My faith is deep so no sense stressing about it. I will go with the flow.
Thanks Asher for this post. Please forgive me as it is spring time so I cannot be here a lot right now. But I am here in spirit. Great to read one of your posts and catch up!
I just read a snapshot of hf20. Do you know where I would read the full update proposal. What I read suggests that they're getting rid of the dust vote but they're nullfying all votes under 1.2 SBD (even whale votes under 1.2) But that essentially nullifies all inter-minnow payouts unless they come from a large account voting over 1.2.
Are you reading the 'velocity' @steemitblog post?
1.2 SBD sounds A LOT, I'm sure that won't be the case.
I'll look into it more this week...
@abh12345 Nope, I was given an incorrect interpretation of it but someone later clarified a more sane-sounding possible interpretation: That all accounts will be subtracted 1.2 SP per vote. So a 100% vote will actually register a 98.8% vote, and so on. Since accounts won't have a delegation upon being opened, 1.2 SP at 100% will be a minimum for their vote to be 0.00. At least that is what I was re-explained. Now I'm not sure of this, but this sounds more sane. So if you can get more information, I'd appreciate it.
It still poses a situation for new users. Users won't have any SP going in unless they have a delegation or invest something. Just updating your account profile and getting rewards I feel requires a minimum of 3SP. With the price of Steem potentially rising from being added to new exchanges, SMT's rolling out, and even now around $4- that's a $12USD investment. That is a day's wage in the Philippines.
With price of steem rising and the other factors of the fork, powering up may also be slower than it is now (that's just my logic, correct me please if I'm wrong.)
I'm okay with it, as I also understand, something must be done to slow down the increase of spam accounts and accounts that post and withdraw daily. So maybe when the time comes I'll start adopting a redfish every month and delegating the 15 rolling- idk.
Let me know if you hear anything more.
This seems more feasible, but as you mention, it is not free to play in future and a chunk of salary in some countries.
This will certainly help reduce spam and other undesirable actions, which I support any move towards.
Delegations to new accounts could become important, and as has been the case for a while, 'we' will be called on to help the ones trying their best.
Thanks, will keep an eye out.
Sorry for the dust vote. Ha. I keep forgetting about the darn dust vote. Okay thanks.
😂
Save your dust!
i took some time to read through this post too and read a lot of the comments the other day. i think what it boils down to is this:
sometimes in life we have the option to "force a move" like you're saying. sometimes "powers that be" - in this case Steemit inc- need to see something "get really bad" (tragedy of the commons as trafalgar says above) before they'll move to shift anything.
personally, i love hearing from you and other impassioned witnesses (hey! i can say that about you now!) and steemians with larger platforms, but the question i always come back to is:
where is steemit inc in all this?
I understand that this is a decentralized platform and we're all thrown in this together, but steemit inc still drops the hardforks and in this way controls the system we're all playing within. where are they? i know the communication is notably and notoriously horrible from them... but i would think if their own stakes are slowly deteriorating in relation to the structure of the system itself (and individually we're left to a moral dilemma to be an asshole or not), someone would feel motivated to generate a shift in the structure. simple survival there- unless "it hasn't gotten bad enough yet"..
feeling so out of control as a "regular" steemian, it's easy for so many of us who don't have any weight to throw around to just keep on business as usual. i suppose this is a lot like life. i hope (and i do believe) that your words touch someone who can do something about this. personally, i would also like to be able to live off of the money i earn off of steem eventually and see the pages of steemit reflect the real user base and not these people circle jerking or abusing bots... my two cents <3
And what a fine 2 cents they are :)
I would guess that Steemit inc. are busy with HiveMind, Communities, and SMT and perhaps need to keep these things top of the list, as they are top of the roadmap for 2018.
The rewards structure is being altered with the next fork with regards to curation rewards, and so taking the advice of one of last years commentators, are tweaking one thing at a time.
It does feel at times like the folks distributing their votes and playing by ideals are keeping this place afloat, but perhaps it's not as bad as I think? Let's us hope that this is true, and review is planned following the next set of changes.
Thanks for your input here! :)
@beeyou made a post about this and honestly it bummed me out because it would run contrary to everything that we stand for.
It would destroy engagement, curation rewards would be screwed as each people would just upVote themselves and not give a fuck about the platform.
We would see lots of pictures, memes and Zappls as mere placeholder posts to self upVote and then comment and upvote your own comments.
Some people would attempt to flag but with most people self voting they will lose a Battle of numbers.
I give it about two weeks before all Redfishes leave followed by the minnows and all that will be left are dolphins and whales self voting themselves.
Investors would look and see people leaving disillusioned but would like a stake in the money printing business so they invest and self upVote like the rest and continually pump the funds outside.
People would start to power down because they don't want to be the person to be left holding the bag and so it becomes a race to get out and sell as much as they can.
People would have moved to a different platform and hope the culture is right.
Teh numbers keeping dropping and the only people left are those still waiting for their powering down.
I think it is a folly to wait for Steem inc to save the platform as the only thing they care about is how SMT will be so great it will be Huuuuuge!
Meanwhile because of the dumping steem prices are so low and those who are still powering down begin to panic as they will be the ones to hold the bag.
It is a post apocalyptic scenario unless we take everyone and fix teh culture it might be reality as like the comments that you used to drive this point.
I'm hopeful that we don't need everyone, just the usual 10% that normally affect change. I think that means roughly 6,000 give or take, of the daily active users (although, we might actually get away with a smaller number).
The sad thing is, our solution takes time. It's not going to happen in a week or in a month or maybe even in a year. And in the meantime, there will be other users showing up like grumpycat or haejin or take your pick that will throw things for a loop, plus there will be HF 20 (Velocity) which is supposed to turn on the floodgates, along with the SMTs and the community and the hivemind, all that's been talked about dropping this year.
People don't seem to move until someone is actually taking their stuff, not just threatening to do it. In the case of Haejin, he's been flagged now for over 8 weeks, but it took months of this for anyone to move, and with the rise of STEEM, he's back to well over 1% of the reward pool again, and he's on the verge of breaking a 79 reputation ranking to boot, with over 29,000 followers/bots/duplicate accounts.
I'm the hold the line advocate. But even I know there won't be much to hold onto if something's not done by someone. And the only ones any one of us can potentially rely on with any great certainty are ourselves.
Will we be enough?
Thanks for the reply Mav, I'm with you on what you say. Things could fall out and collapse rapidly with the 'full asshole' movement!
Chin up though, league day - when I get round to the post!
Eliminate delegation? That would kill bid bots, and probably have the big holders actually curate themselves or via something like steemauto. Of course this would also hurt a lot of people.
I don't think this is the correct approach, at present anyway. dtube, utopian-io, dlive have attracted many new faces. Although many are content creators (and not investors), I do think delegated SP has benefited the platform overall.
The worst part is, that if everyone went "full asshole", Steemit would die... But, I guess that wouldn't really bother people with hundreds of thousands of Steem Power, because they would've been able to generate millions by then.
I will continue to delegate my measly 1000 SP to others in an attempt to do something good for the platform... I can't help myself, but I've been feeling more and more lately, that it is a huge waste of time, effort and profit.
Perhaps I'm living in some sort of denial. Perhaps I'm just a retard who believes the pay-it-forward mindset will be able to achieve great things on a platform such as Steemit... But I just can't give up.
I miss @dan. I doubt this would've happened with him in charge. And even if this would've happened, I bet he would have done everything he could to prevent it. #bringdanback
I guess that would depend on how quickly they can get out before 0? But yes, many should be fully satisfied with what has already left the table.
Thanks and much appreciation to you for continuing with @asaper's -it's a great project and you are not alone with 'the pay-it-forward mindset'.
Have a good day man :)
Hi There. Lynn thought you might be able to re steem my latest blog. We are in need. I just want you to possibly spread the word as I have few connections........or if you know how I can withdraw and guide me through it.
Hi Brian
I'm thinking it might be best for you to ask people (here on Steemit) to donate via their Steem wallets, directly to one of you.
I see you have had a reply on your post offering help with this and hope you (and Lynn) can get something organised.
I wish you both some more happy times together.
man still so confused, thanks my friend. I think I will just forget anymore and transfer all to lynn.Honestly I cant think clearly lately to understand. Thanks
I've only been active a bit more than 2 months so am now becoming aware of some of the flaws. Of course, this platform is a new venture and one should expect flaws. Thats part of the process. What I hope to see is a response and correction from @ned and crew. Perhaps you can enlighten me and others about EOS... the new @dan venture. What is that all about?
I’ve invested I EOS, you can join the EOS group on Discord to learn more, and there is tons of post relating to EOS on steamit, do a search
What is the EOS discord @reddust???
Talk to these people @omitaylor https://steemit.com/eosng/@eosng/eos-meeting-on-discord-be-part-of-it
Asher will probably have a better answer, but from what i can tell, EOS is best described as an operated system for blockchains. My understanding is, they want to make it so every blockchain can pretty much have other apps running on it even if they're not currently set up to do that. And of course, these apps can be created to work on the EOS blockchain, too.
There has been much written RE EOS by others, perhaps @beanz @stellabelle's blogs can help? I also think they have an account here?
It's a bit too broad a question for me today :D
I really want to get into EOS but it's so everywhere I don't even know where to start. Lol
I really hope the HF20 address some of the issue of rewards, self votes and bidbots. It is the big elephant in the room that someone needs to talk to. Until them I'm keeping my fingers crossed and hope for the best.
HF20 sounds like it will be an attempt to address curation rewards and early self-voting, who could help steady the ship a little. But from what read, n^1 is the culprit and HF20 may not be enough.
Cheers!
I'd love to see the HF20 implemented first. We can move forward from there.
Same here!
I also support you.
Hmmm full asshole?even if my votes are 0.01 per vote soo i might not make a difference even if i try😂😂 il just try and get to the top of the engagement week 😂
I think the league is a better option, certainly a chance to earn more STEEM - good luck!
You are doing a good job of showing us what it going on.. Thanks1
Thanks @ilovepoorpeople - I love that account name!
You could start a full asshole challenege for a week, haha! It might feel good to stop being so nice for a week haha.
I love what @trafalgar said " When individual efforts to maximizing profits contribute to the value of the whole, then it's a successful system."
Basically we need to design a win-win system. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this and being an advocate for positive change!
heh :D Maybe I will!
Yes, that whole paragraph pretty much summed things up now, and where they need to be.
Thank you for your kind comments!
I'm already half-asshole so I'm all set with going full asshole permanently. Although that would be hilarious to see what happens if 100+ people ALL self-voted first, sold their votes to each other, pumped their posts to $200, delegated to each other in a big circle, etc... sort of in a planned way. I'm always curious to see if it has any effect or if it's minimal effect. I don't have any way to track such metrics though.
Or, even if a group of 30 people all boosted 1 post in a circle to maximum height, like $1000, like an operation infiltrate trending. To see what the system is capable of.
Okay enough of a machiavellian moment.
I'm on the fence. I think (personally) minnows need to power up - especially right now, especially with all the changes coming. I don't hate on any of them doing whatever they need to do and I will do what I need to do so I'm not insignificant come HF20. And if I'm going to be one of those people who will have to delegate to accounts I set up for my friends, then I'm going to need SP to do it. Because even though they're fixing sign up, they're also making it 0 delegations.
Hey everyone, I'm naive and new, can we visualise things on an altruistic to full arsehole scale for a sec?
It's pretty safe to stay Steemit won't become fully altruistic, but we aren't fully altruistic ourselves; we're all in it for our own selfish reasons, even if those reasons appear selfless.
And if Steemit was to go full arse-hole, well there would be many large arse-holes with tinges of altruism. And this is just kinda how it is.
Anyway, I don't know what I'm talking about.
At the least, I like the fact you're pushing towards a structure that takes away the monetary gain of playing the bidbot/upvote/circlejerk game - Thanks for that.
Here's to being hit with the sprays of Altruism that spill out of the arseholes.
Hello @carpet.duck!
Thanks for your comments, and welcome on board :)
Probably correct, but with the right coded-rules, we could do, or be 'forced' to do better? :)
alright!
You are right, STEEM, recently raised a lot of questions. But, I, at the moment do not see any better perspective for myself. Good luck to you and Love.
On the subject of going full asshole, here is an example of that happening right now.
Things do seem to be in full swing over there! 🤦🏻♂️
There is no problem here. We don't have to go full asshole, we don't have to be altruistic. The only thing we need is time. Soon enough, competition will force change or death. EOS anyone?
hmm.
Yes I was wondering if the process may be sped up. I have some time though.
Well, since we're talking about walking on the dark side, I think I would prefer the plan where I do 10 x posts a day, with delegation from a whale and said whale exclusively upvotes me. I'd actually settle for half a whale or a four times orca.
I think that would be less work for me, once it got set up. Or maybe I could just go for the trifecta, self upvote and bid bots. I wonder how long it would take me to earn between 1-2% of the reward pool?
Only need a few more of us doing that, maybe five, but no more than ten I would imagine. So, which orcas in the 200,000 SP range or more would be willing to go with us on this? :)
The trifecta, hehe :D
Well there have been a few with at least one hand up in the replies! but I think it's when the last few good sized accounts announce retirement from being good, then the rest can follow.
"We need to abandon the foundational principles of Steemit in order to save the foundational principles of Steemit." I don't know. The more I think about it, the more it just makes me tired and a little sad. This is why we can't ever have nice stuff.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with someone having more than me. I don't need income equality, and I don't need some assurance of income either. I don't even need a minimum wage. But I do like the idea of equal opportunity. I'm not sure if that exists here. I keep reading that it doesn't. I'm apparently not smart enough to figure it out on my own. :)
I will go full asshole next week, I’ve only been a tight asshole with the bidbots so far...let’s do it😂😂😂
hah!
HOLD, until all of the above people I've thanked in the article decide - that will be the signal!
Hehe, okay❤️
And thanks for fielding one of the replies in this post!
I need to interact on important issues, in the past I’ve lost whales friendship so I stopped. Now I can use the bid-bots, I say “fuckit,” and speak my mind.
However when speaking of high math such as linear rewards, this subject is too complicated for me to understand and I don’t know who to trust regarding providing me with the correct data to make a decision. We need math-heads with the talent to speak to non math people like me...
The big guys here, the game changers mostly care about there own benefits and not how to develop the community or up coming people. Probably they felt they took a risk investing om steemit when it initially came so theyshould enjoy the profits alone
I'm pretty sure that @trafalgar has openly stated what he invested here:
https://steemit.com/steemit/@trafalgar/3-months-1000-followers-and-usd1-million-later
(This is a top post to those who have not seen it!)
This investment has long been payed off and without looking, I guess his account is around 1,500,000.
The rewards have long outshone any risk for many, even if the place blows up tomorrow.
good to know this ^^^ thanks! a lot of people use that to excuse the behavior of the initial investors saying they deserve it
Hello abh. I am going to write a post in the coming days from someone new and what they see. A bit like when you go to a new company and you can see all the problems and the ones who have been there a while can't. I don't profess to know everything here but it will be my insights from what I have picked up. I won't say if they are right or wrong or name accounts but will be from my angle on what I have seen.
Sounds like a plan. There is a link provided by another user within a comment on this post that does this, as well as name the names!
Don't want to cause trouble yet. Too small to make waves. i have just finished writing about the divided community. Just couldn't wait so please have a look. i am sure you know everything there already and lots more.
sometimes I am confused by what big whales do, sometimes they give gifts to fellow whales rather than to small fish with little reputation.