In the last few days, I was part of the discussion whether STEEM-Monsters (@steemmonsters) is a "pay-to-win" game or not on a few occasions on Discord. But why store all those interesting topics on Discord, when we have an amazing blockchain we can store such discussions on?! That's why I have decided to pick up this topic in this post. I will write a little bit about my view and would be glad if at least a few people would share their opinion in the comments section. This is not a question that simply can be answered with "yes" or "no", so discussing it should be fun and intersting!
What is "pay-to-win?"
Before discussing whether STEEM-Monsters is "pay-to-win" or not, we should look into the definition. And this is where the problems start - there is no 100% clear definition of the term "pay-to-win" (which I will refer to as P2W from now on).
The, in my opinion, best definition I could find via Google was the one from urbandictionary.com:
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
Is STEEM-Monsters "pay-to-win?"
Now that we have a definition we can work with, we can look at STEEM-Monsters. Considering the fact that you can pay for better cards is obviously a big point for the ones who consider STEEM-Monsters to be P2W. With max leveled cards you have a huge advantage over players who just have level 1 cards for example. You might want to be able to beat higher level decks with skill if the player with the higher ranked deck plays bad - But at a similar skill level, you will have almost no chance of winning with your level 1 cards. By buying cards you also can level those up way faster than by collecting experience via fighting (not yet possible).
So it may seem as if STEEM-Monsters is a classical P2W game when just looking at the above definition, I can totally understand that.
However,...
isn't everything "pay-to-win" to a certain extent? Let me show with a overdramatic example:
In my home country Austria, Skiing is the national sport and Marcel Hirscher the biggest hero of that sport at the time, winning the last seven world cups in a row. But could he have done that without having the best equipment available? Of course not. Even though there is little to no doubt that he is one of the best skiers of all time, he would have ZERO chance on pro level (where the racers have 1000$+ equipment) with a regular pair of 100$-ski out of some random sports shop.
Have you ever heard someone discussin wheter skiing is pay to win? I bet not.
This is because it is accepted that, in order to compete on the highest levels, you have to have the best gear. It's just a barrier of investment you need to make, otherwise you have no chance. But once you have passed that barrier, you can't pay more to have a higher chance of winning.
Isn't it the same with Steem Monsters? Once you have all the available cards maxed out, it is definitely no more P2W. Besides bribing other players to play worse against you, you can't invest money in order to have higher chances of winning.
What a stupid comparison!
Well, I know that comparing Skiing to STEEM-Monsters might be a little bit crazy, as the first is a sport and the second a trading-card-game. But what about comparing STEEM-Monsters to the most popular trading card game on the planet - Magic the Gathering (MTG) !
Do you consider MTG to be P2W? If you don't want to spend a few hundreds (or more likely thousands) of dollars on cards, you will have as much chance of winning a big tournament than you will have being at the number one spot of STEEM-Monsters with just level 1 cards.
So if the worlds most famous trading-card-game works in a similar way and has been successful with this style for over 20 years - do you really think this is something that will be a problem for STEEM-Monsters?
Invest-to-win
Personally, I see STEEM-Monsters rather as "invest-to-win" than "pay-to-win", since you also can see the cards as an investment and even make profit with them without playing a single match. And if you want to play STEEM-Monsters on competitive level, you just have to invest in good gear (high level cards) the same way a sportsman has to invest in good gear (above is of course not only true for skiing but for pretty much every sport out there). Once you invested in your gear, there are not more P2W elements at all.
It would be different, if there for example would be some kind of bonus you could buy that would earn you double experience points for a certain amount of time. This would be clearly pay rather than invest, since you would posses nothing after that amount of time that you could sell again. I hope something like this will never come to STEEM-Monsters!
Additionally, there might be modes with lower levels of needed investment in the future. Maybe tournaments capped at level 1 monsters for example? I am sure @aggroed and Co. will figure things out too keep the fun high.
Closing words:
As you can see, if you only look at it from a definition-point, STEEM-Monsters can definitely seen as P2W. However, I think STEEM-Monsters just works the way many things in life work - if you are not willing to invest into good gear, you will be at a disadvantage against those with better gear. And in all of those areas, let it be sports (skiing is obviously not the only one where it works that way) or popular trading card games (MTG, Yu-Gi-Oh, etc.), this mechanism has been and is working. So why should STEEM-Monsters be different?
If there was no incentitive to buy cards, there would most likely not even be STEEM-Monsters game. And with that, there would be one less option for all of us to invest our STEEM/SBD into. And I think we can all agree that we want more things to invest those currencies into - and not less!
That beeing said, I think it is a good thing that STEEM-Monsters is "invest-to-win". This definitely adds value to the STEEM blockchain!
What are your thoughts about this topic?
Greets,
Martin
It's funny that you say it's "invest to win" because a couple of weeks ago there was a similar discussion about the Steem blockchain in general with regards to Resource Credits. A lot of people were saying that the Steem blockchain was a "pay to play" system and I said that it was really more of an "invest to play" system!
You're absolutely right about Steem monsters being invest to win, which is something that the blockchain allows us to easily do that almost all other digital games don't offer.
That being said, in my opinion it is too much invest to win right now. This is only the very first version and we a have lot of changes and improvements to come. Specifically regarding the "invest to win" aspect, we plan to both add more skill element to the game and provide opportunities to earn more cards and level them up through gameplay.
I would be lying if I would say that I didn't read the passage about RCs you are refering to ;)
Yeah, for the current modus with an ELO System it might be too much, especially because worse players can comensate their skill and just copy decks. So you basically just need to buy the cards and copy decks. But once there are different modes (like a KO-system), own deck building skills become way more important imo.
And of course there could be other modes which allow way less room for such problems. I have been thinking about one a lot during my train ride today. I will post about it tomorrow, as it would be too long for a comment at this point. I will present the idea on SM-Discord as well then.
Your announcements regarding more skill elements, etc. sound great by the way! :)
Nevertheless, we should not forget that we need the people ... it is not that the people need us (the STEEM blockchain). So we should be attractive for newbies, not demanding. :)
That's great. :)
For me "pay-to-win" equals "invest-to-win" - in the end its nothing for the small fishes. But anyway: As long as the players/investor have fun, it*s good for the developers ^^
Hm, for me personally:
"pay-to-win" - you pay in order to increase your chances of winning, not mattering what your skill level is
"invest-to-win" - you invest in the gear necessary to compete on the level you want to compete in. Once you have reached that investment, you can't pay more to win more easily.
I know, it's just a slight difference and there is no 100% line in between those things.
Very well put, Martin. Aggroed calls it Stake to play, which works well too.
There is so much that's novel about this game, it's hard to recognise the value of actually owning your cards.
Great skiing analogy, too.
Thank you :) Aggroeds term is nice as well, yes!
I think this is where the biggest advantage of the blockchain kicks in - you own your cards and you also can see who owns which cards. Therefore you can be pretty sure that the owners just don't print themselves great cards and make money by selling them for example.
For me it unites the advantages and fun of a trading-card-game with the benefits of a blockchain :)
We have already discussed this at length today. I fully endorse your conclusion.
#invest-to-win is a nice term, which also describes it well.
I'm very excited to see how others feel about it.
Of course it is P2W.
Professional sport requires a huge investment, not only the skiers, suit, but also additional resources like psychologists, physicians, massagers, cooks etc. that accompany the top players in some sports. But that is a completely other level of investment, so I would not use this as a comparison.
If you define "I2W" broad enough, then all games are in that group, even chess, because to be a top player, you need to invest in time to get the skills. But this makes no sense, in chess you find tons of players at all levels and you can spend whole nights of exciting play without spending a single cent (e.g. on the fee lichess.org platform).
So I would be honest and call it maybe a low level, but still P2W.
Just as playing chess is possible with just a set of figures and a board, playing SteemMonsters is possible with just a set of level 1 monsters. You might also enjoy many fights against similar ranked players (more joy will come with more cards and more options) - But you won't be able to have success on a competitive level - Just like you won't have success at competitive chess tournaments by just enjoying games with friends.
I am not against calling STEEM-Monsters a P2W game - my point is that almost all competitive stuff requires a certain amout of investment in order to being able to compete on a bigger scale.
To be honest it's a bit funny from my own experience. the game seem to do a better job at matching me into fair fights when I use level 1 summoner. It's actually at the point where I straight up win more from this instead of using one of my "higher" (currently lvl 5).
So right now it feels like you either have to super invest into very high levels or just stay at level 1 lol.
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Interesting, need to try that out tomorrow :D
As I got my butt routinely kicked by decks that had gold foil cards max level with Selena Sky Summoner i was thinking that at this point those that had a lot of money would have won and it was apparent with a lot of those in the top 50 who looking at their decks usually had a legendary or two or at least max level cards.
Of course there are others that won by being able to analyze and think of a good deck for the mana cost.
Yet when cards start earning experience from battles and eventually max out then it will be a little bit closer and here counters and combinations will determine who can win.
I have in several instances have kicked some of the dragon based decks with my poor man's deck because of a good counter.
So early on since they invested they have a higher chance but it does not make them unbeatable. There will always be someone who will be able to counter your deck.
Now if point boosters, no points removed if you lose and other items would be sold then that could be a case of a play to win.
Right now I am just enjoying the game although at times when I see a familiar name that kicked my ass earlier I cringe and know I will lose. I hope that there can be a nerf on that where a player can be attacked by the same player more than 2-3 times because it really sucks that you start a win streak and then you see a name and you curse because you know your streak is broken.
At the moment their is not sutch thing as bad play in my Opinion ! The Only thing you can make bad is how you position your Monsters ,everything else is not in your influence. in Other games like magic the gathering or Hearthstone you can realy make bad plays but not in a game where no interaction is and everything is made automatically.
What i like Steemmonsters is a quick Game . You can make 20 Games in a hour .
And yes the game has a little bit from p2w as long monsters dont lvl by fighting .
Well, deck building and knowing when to use which deck also is a Skill :)
Leveling by fighting is announced to come!
you're awesome! Your presentation is amazing!
Go! Go Telis team!!!
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it's definitely pay to win, you can say it as you like "invest to win" or anything else. I have been playing card games since i was a kid, so i have at least some experience in this matter.
Let's take 2 of the most online popular games today. It's duel links which is yu gi oh and heartstone. Heartstone when it started it was 100% pay to win cause you had some basic cards for free, you earned other basic cards for free but if you paid money to buy packs you could win the best ones. Thus those that paid 0 $ had literally no chance of advancing in this game.
Now because they added many cards and different ways to earn cards for free (by grinding if you have heard the term) even if you pay nothing you can advance pretty far.
Duel Links on the other hand made it pretty easy to earn cards. For example i haven't paid nothing and have let's say for example 80% of the cards. You need to pay quite some the amount to get the best cards and there is no point. The way they did it though, doesn't require any skill as anyone can find the cards, check for decks online and build a pretty pretty decent deck. For example i said to a friend that had no idea about yu gi oh to start the game and buy only a specific pack multiple times (with in game currency not real money). In less than a month he mad a deck that led him to the second best division :P
i think steemmonsters is definitely a pay to win game as you literally only pay to gain packs. Sure there are some giveaways but the main way to gain packs is through buying, except if you are all day in the contest tag and look for free cards. Thus it simple stats, in order to gain more cards you need to buy more and if you buy more you will obtain better cards and build a better deck.
Why not? :-)
That's why I like chess: I only need my brain to play it.