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RE: @abit Saved Your Ass on Steem And Many Don't Know This Information, Time To Vote For @abit As Witness

in #witness6 years ago

In the framework of psychology: blame, shame and condemnation alike serve the purpose of expressing the level of disagreability one has for another's actions or inactions.

Ok, but expressing disagreeability in these ways in most cases doesn't lead to any sort of productive change because only a tiny fraction of people are mature enough to respond without defensiveness and actually admit wrongdoing. Even if it is the catalyst for an eventual change of heart/behavior, that is primarily an internal process. If blame, shame, and condemnation were efficient methods of progressing humanity, we would expect to see modern governmental systems be productive, but instead they become weighed down by the morass of ego struggles, where even if someone wants to admit to having been wrong, they won't to maintain pride in the face of being condemned.

In the context of vote-selling, and even worse, vote buying, if you don't condemn it, it's either excused, or marginalized, or outright endorsed by silence or even worse by the approval and encouragement of others and as it gathers social approval the worse and worse the practice will become. What will become of this place as this practice gains acceptance?

You're seeing it now. In my view, vote-selling and buying is at a place of complete and total acceptance.
I've never seen anyone use their stake to flag it, while I've seen plenty of whales flag bid-bot use. @tcpolymath once did an analysis of who really benefits when votes are sold through smartsteem, and the ones I believe made the least profit, with the most accruing to the mediator (@smartsteem) and the vote purchaser.

Many marginalized the issue or outright shifted the blame to "the code" yet this practice only happened and continues so because people with stake haven't the incentive of checking it, and thus making such abuse not profitable and therefore a fruitless or outright painful endeavor.

First, I already shared my thoughts on the relative inefficiency of public condemnation, because the main problems stem from imbalances in incentives. There's a few types of incentives: chain-level, social (unspoken/implied/overt) and layers built on top (like @steem-ua.) In the case of flagging vote-buying (which is already a million times more productive than complaining about it) there might need to be some sort of negative curation rewards, something more to motivate the flagger. I'd prefer to see this done on a chain level, because if it's able to be fixed there, it will be fixed permanently, cleanly, and elegantly.

Why do people without stake lack the incentive to check it? Because people have, for as long as steem has been around, considered that code ought to deem what is blame worthy, what is shame worthy and what's outright condemnable.

Again you bring in these punishment-based approaches, when positive reinforcement works just as well to motivate people. I'd prefer a chain where vote-buying is possible and even profitable, but much less so than curating manually. Many different levels of consciousness and philosophies on one chain lead to a more dynamic community and one that reflects the world population at large better.

It's a sad state when people aren't capable of discerning such things for themselves and it's a sadder thing that so many lack the moral withall that they would rather coddle those who beg for code to ordain morality instead of dismissing them as nonsensical and lacking the moral fortitude and integrity and declaring that they themselves are responsible for recognizing what is good, what isn't or what is neither.

This may be part of the crux of our disagreement. Morality is most effective for what I would term the adolescent stage of humanity (which many never get beyond, even in old age.) Underneath imposed moralization, there is only consequence on deep levels. That is, if one performs an "immoral" act, it is my belief that the "punishment" doled thereto is automatic & integral, like the laws of physics. Imposing additional consequences on top is an artifice.

So, for me, someone without the stake to actually flag such abuse, the only way out of this quagmire is to voice my complete disapproval of it or outright condemn such practice and signal to others that there's a response to abuse that doesn't require code changes, a response from those whom haven't the stake, so that maybe, no matter how insurmountable it may seem, others who have stake join in.

That helps me understand how you choose to use the tool of condemnation better. I would defend to the death your right to approach things in this way, even though I find it to be relatively inefficient.

On the opposite spectrum are those who have sung the same nonsense and have displayed a lack of integrity and do so either because they think nothing of community or of the future, regardless of what they say counter to that, or simply are disingenuous so that some abusive users will reward their support of such condemnable behavior. I find it despicable either way.

I can agree most with the assertion that vote-selling/buying is somewhat short-sighted. I don't think it always stems from apathy towards the community, but rather frustration and especially depression during a bear market. There's also a lot of built-up resentment for Steemit, Inc. in what is perceived as their detachment from the grassroots community.

I'm not sure if this is also at the heart of our disagreement, but I view capitalistic approaches as a necessary, inevitable, and beneficial part of any economic system. I only have a problem with it when total penetration of profit-oriented sentiment reaches a certain pivotal percentage, whose exact figure I'm not sure. But, we are probably to that point on Steemit.

The thing is, in the next bull market, there is bound to be great abundance here again. I think you will see that (some) people stop trying to milk every last drop out of vote buying and selling to become more generous once again. Will your condemnation help them see the light? Perhaps so, and I honor your right to approach things that way.

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@tcpolymath once did an analysis of who really benefits when votes are sold through smartsteem, and the ones I believe made the least profit, with the most accruing to the mediator (@smartsteem) and the vote purchaser.

That sounds like something I would do, but I don't remember actually doing it.

 6 years ago  Reveal Comment

He who does not blame, approves. This is a maxim of law. If someone won't admit to be wrong I'm not there to make them admit, all I can do is point out their fault, the rest is up to them.

I don't agree. You can remain neutral without condemning or approving. I know you're saying that is a kind of approval so I believe we are defining approval differently.

I didn't express anything like that, all I expressed was the obvious rationale of the above maxim, so exactly what are you disagreeing with when I never talked or insinuated imposing oneself.

Again, I meant "impose" in a different sense. I'm saying that ideas about morality tend to be impositions by all humans (not you specifically) on top of what is already perfectly balanced (laws of the universe.)

Redemption isn't a piece of cake, and nobody can redeem themselves until they have admitted to the wrong that condemned them, and if you don't condemn such a wrong you are allowing it. You are your brothers keeper.

I still see it as a primarily internal process, but concede that I see more value in outright condemnation than I did before.

I'd be wary of their generosity, I'd be very wary of people who are quick to sing a different tune and fast to ask us to forget especially so if they have made no gestures seeking forgiveness because it leaves the impression that they didn't think much, if anything, of what they did and will soon resort to the same kind of dishonesty and hypocrisy.

Again, you seem to see vote-selling/buying in a decidedly negative light. I view it as a neutral outgrowth, the logical consequences of the chain's operation. There's nothing to apologize for nor forgiveness to seek from my perspective.

It's hypocrisy after all because the only reason they continue to vote sell and vote buy is because people are still manually curating, if everyone delegated to bots there would be nothing to promote for, no reason to engage and no audience to consume.

You're correct about manual curation being required for this place to have any value. If we ever reached a point where every single vote that was cast was automated, the whole value proposition would be gone. But, such a thing will never occur as long as a single person makes the decision to vote manually.

 6 years ago (edited) Reveal Comment
 6 years ago  Reveal Comment