RE: Bid bots aren't the devil and neither are Linear Rewards

[timcliff]

Advantaging scammers doesn't make Steem better.

Sorry but this is too vague / general.

If the distribution is the problem then why not let those who think so sell their Steem instead?

It is not up to us what the stakeholders do with their stake. Those with the most power are to a large extent choosing to hold on to it.

Comments

[teamsteem]

If everyone voted for themselves then the result would be simple interest payments and have no economic impact. @steemitblog

This would nullify Steem Power use.

If everyone does this everyone loses but the largest shakeholders lose the most. Thus those who have the least to lose or nothing at stake don't have to care. They received their SP for free, create bots that votes and comments and at some point they will end up controlling most of the SP.

Those who have the largest stake can't simply upvote themselves all the time whether it's under linear reward or superlinear reward. This would kill the demand for SP.

But under any super linear reward the largest stakeholders do have an advantage, while under linear reward because everyone is "equal" then the largest share holders lost something, they are at a disadvantage. Sorry if it wasn't clear prior.

In a world with honest people who don't vote on themselves to get "free money for nothing", a simple linear curve, aka n would produce a 1 share 1 vote proportional payout.

...

Unfortunately, we live in a world where people will attempt to game the system by voting for themselves. If everyone voted for themselves then the result would be simple interest payments and have no economic impact. We believe that groups are more honest in aggregate than individuals. We also believe that whales (accounts with over $500K Steem Power) have more to lose and are easier to police than the multitude of smaller accounts. - @steemitblog

Under the current system, policing is costly while self-upvote with bots is quasi free, thus Steemit Inc reffering it to free money.

[timcliff]

Thus those who have the least to lose or nothing at stake don't have to care. They received their SP for free, create bots that votes and comments and at some point they will end up controlling most of the SP.

You seem to have drawn a line between the large stakeholders as 'good' and the people who earned their stake as 'not caring'. Things are not this simplistic. Some of the largest stakeholders are doing things that are arguably doing major damage to the network/blockchain/token. Some of the new members who have received only 'free' (earned) stake care deeply and are doing a lot to advance the platform.

Those who have the largest stake can't simply upvote themselves all the time whether it's under linear reward or superlinear reward. This would kill the demand for SP.

Prior to linear rewards a large portion of the upvotes were going to the friends of the whales, and the vast majority of the users were complaining about how they wern't getting noticed. It may not have been as evident/obvious as direct self-voting, but it was almost as bad.

But under any super linear reward the largest stakeholders do have an advantage, while under linear reward because everyone is "equal" then the largest share holders lost something, they are at a disadvantage. Sorry if it wasn't clear prior.

Sorry, but they are not at a disadvantage. Yes, they have less influence than before, but disadvantage is an incorrect characterization. A user who has 10x as much stake gets 10x as much influence. That is not really an 'unfair' or disadvantaged situation.

We also believe that whales (accounts with over $500K Steem Power) have more to lose and are easier to police than the multitude of smaller accounts.

This was not really happening though.

Under the current system, policing is costly while self-upvote with bots is quasi free

Self-upvoting (or circle / clique voting) is still possible with n^2. It is less profitable for minnows, and more profitable for whales.

This is a messy situation. I am not going to sit here and try to convince you that linear rewards is perfect. Both linear rewards and n^2 have some major flaws to them. Whether we go with one or the other - we are making a choice with regards to the pros and cons of the different options.

You seem very convinced that n^2 is the solution to all of our problems, but you seem to ignore all the other problems that it creates. You cannot blindly campaign for it without accepting and acknowledging what it costs. It does improve a lot of things - yes; but it makes us worse off in other ways.

[teamsteem]

You seem to have drawn a line between the large stakeholders as 'good' and the people who earned their stake as 'not caring'.

I might have seemed to draw such line but I never draw such line. Someone who has 1 millions SP care to the same extent than someone who has 1 SP, they simply don't care to as many SP and whether they mine, blog or buy to get it it's still the same market price when they come to sell.

Should Steem be giving free Steem to those who don't engage in proof-of-brain?

Should Steem give the biggest advantage to those who don't engage in proof-of-brain?

Have you read "Evil Whale"?

[timcliff]

Should Steem be giving free Steem to those who don't engage in proof-of-brain?

You can say the same thing about all the 'free steem' that is being given out to whales and the people they vote for under the n^2 system.

Should Steem give the biggest advantage to those who don't engage in proof-of-brain?

I don't know what is being compared here, and who has an advantage over who in the context of the question.

Have you read "Evil Whale"?

Yes, it was written in the context of a reduction in curation rewards, and explained the theory of how good voting and curation was incentivized through the existing voting/rewards structure. There are parts of it that are flawed when trying to use the same analysis in the context of linear vs. n^2 curation rewards, and there are also some things that we have learned since the post was written (two years ago) which were the reason the new hardfork was made to change away from n^2. There are a lot of good and valid points in the post.