Where I think you have it wrong is in believing capitalism is liberty, it isn't. You look at any country which right now is part of the first and developed world and it's a country that has preyed on the natural resources of weaker states. And the same applies to individuals. The stronger will live off of the weak as has always happened, there is no such thing as liberty, you might think you have it but you don't, for example try going to another country without a passport, there you can see there is no freedom of movement you have to pay for it, or open a business lots of paperwork and fees, a poor person cannot travel unless he does so "illegally" . Capitalism is just as bad as any other form of government, maybe worse, because in capitalism one person or group manages to control every single aspect of the production of a country or state that is OK, because he is exercising "freedom" so apart from actually screwing the people you are also lying to them by implying they are free. But just as in socialism or any other form of government what happens is a small group of people actually control everything. Better said in fact we all live in totalitarian states, where you only change the name of the government which might be socialist, "democratic", monarchy, fascist (most countries are actually fascists but refuse to accept this) but we are all governed by a very small group of people who actually reap the benefits.
You might have the fortune of being from one of the rich countries were at least you have been able to attain a certain high level of living (better said a consumer society where you can fall in debt buying stuff), but if you were from a poor country I can assure you your view of capitalism would be very different.
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You're confusing capitalism with crony-capitalism, or perhaps even fascism. As soon as you bring any state control or manipulation into the equation, it is no longer capitalism. It has become something else.
True capitalism is laissez faire. It is indeed free, and controlled only by market pressures and human action.
Capitalism is not a form of government. It works best in the absence of government. In fact, it's not even a system. It's a lack of a system that gets out of the way of a free economy. There are no examples of this in the modern world.
So, you are saying capitalism does not exist, right? I can agree with that because there is not a single country in the world that is not governed by an elite who are very few in number, so actually when I say most countries are fascist I am really right on the button. Can you give me an example of true capitalism today? In theory what you say is great but so is communism, in reality neither one is possible every time it ends up in the few getting most of the goodies and the many having to work so the few can get them.
Well, communism can't be "great" for several reasons, not the least of which is that it necessitates coercion. Of course, its track record is one of pain and destruction.
Communism is both political and economic. Capitalism is only economic, with no political (from a state perspective) control. They really can't be compared.
Capitalism does exist in pockets and "spheres" of influence. Sometimes these are underground. Sometimes it's just a local barter system.
That's the thing - capitalism is not a system. It's really the absence of one. It's human activity trading freely. We can do it in many ways, from trading coffee for a donut to bitcoin for a good or service. As long as we're doing so freely and without having to deal with outside coercion, control, taxation, regulation, etc., then it's capitalism.
In a lot of countries there are artisans who just ignore the government and tax system. They make their product and sell it without reporting anything. This would be capitalism too.
Some of our structure is capitalistic too. For instance, eBay is a great example. You can trade freely. Cgraigslist is a good example too - probably better than eBay. Then there are other sites like LocalBitcoins, where there really are no regulations at all, other than their escrow service.
If you're looking for a country that's capitalist then, yeah, it's harder to find than a needle in a haystack. But capitalism is a product of the pursuit of freedom. Wherever people strive to be free, there will be some vestiges of capitalism.
See what I am trying to say is all political system ideologies have rational and probably good intentions, but in the long run they al evolve into the big guy eating the little guy.
By the way I have found the topic most interesting, thanks for posting.
It is a good discussion, especially when level headed. :) Thanks.
You're less cynical than I am about these ideologies. While I think so people embrace socialism for good reasons, I don't think anyone imposes it for anything but greed and power.
Everything is corrupted by greed though. There is no system that will keep that from happening. I think the question is more in regard to what's the best pursuit. In my mind, it's freedom. Let us defend ourselves and learn to watch out for those who would do us harm rather than depending upon over-regulation from tyrants to do it.
If we all started with equal access to food, shelter, education, finances etc. then we could say that capitalism is potentially a fair and just economic system for a large population, but that is so not the case. Attempting to justify an economic system which victimizes and minimizes opportunity for over 90% of the participants AT BIRTH seem like deliberate blindness to reality. That is not even discussing the long term damage to our natural environment which is minimizing the safety and opportunities of future generations with no consideration what so ever as long as it provides profit for a few today. I think human beings can do better in designing, organizing and producing an economic system which actually is fair, just and equitable for ALL people and our planet cohabitants. oc
I do not disagree that powerful people have usurped the governments of the world. I do not disagree that governments are a problem.
Socialists tend to think that resources are finite, that if the rich have this much pie then that leaves less for the rest. That is not true.
Everyone makes their own pie in capitalism. The more rich people around you the better off you become. Those rich people hire others and increase their standard of living. An enterprising person with ambition can rise in a system of capitalism, not easily under socialism. Because socialism rewards poor judgement and penalizes good judgement.
Can socialism better the life of someone in absolute poverty? Yes, for awhile. After they have used up all the wealth, there won't be much coming in. Because people that know how to create it will not continue to work when it is just stolen from them. Again, many successful people fled Venezuela when it turned socialist - and now they can't even make food or toilet paper. And that is the fault of socialism.
I can see what you mean, the problem is, these rich guys aren't at all willing to share their wealth, just look at all the outsourcing going on, why do you think this is? I'll tell you, it's because the countries were the work is being out sourced has very low wages so the outsourcers make a killing, the only ones who make a profit here, apart from the same rich people are the guys in transportation, everyone else loses out, you as a customer will be presented with a lower quality product than you would have obtained if it were made in your country.
And in the country were the goods are made, again only a select few see good money, the workers don't.
By the way I don't think much of Socialism either.
Right? Let's say a business owner saves a LOT on taxes Will that employer turn around and hire someone in the community, thereby creating jobs? Doubtfully. It is more likely that they'd invest it or put it in savings. If it was used for the business, it would much more likely go to capital improvements, which is essentially adding value to the business owner's asset pool.
Now let's say, your average citizen get's a HUGE tax break and remember we're talking America here, the great bastion of Capitalism, what do you think that person will do? That's right, they will go out and spend it! Even if they are spendthrift and invest the windfall (average Joe? not likely), they are still likely to spend some portion in the marketplace.
What's so special about people having money to spend?
If a lot of people in the community are spending money, then business increases which is the absolute most likely event that will trigger a business owner to hire. What happens next is fascinating, see, more people having jobs = more people spending money. It becomes a positive feedback loop as opposed to a retentive cycle, tightening the belt ever more and more while playing the punitive blame game and squeezing every last drop out of real actual individual humans.
Will Rogers on Capitalist trickle-down theory:
Do you have any idea how many financial crises our young country has already been through? A lot. Over 6.
And socialism improves the quality of products and services how?
Capitalism is about efficiency, when the Berlin wall fell and Germany was reunited many of the East German factories went bankrupt. They could not compete against the efficiency and quality of the west side. The East Germans finally could obtain products of quality at much lower prices. It took up to 10 years to get a car after you ordered it in East Germany, and you got a trabant. A color TV cost 5x as much and was a worse product than what you could purchase in the west side. What was cheaper in East Germany? Stamps, milk, potatoes.
What exactly would those people being hired by the outsourcers be doing instead? They are not forced to work for them, so obviously they choose to work for them as the best option they can see.
It probably is the only option, and they are treated not too good, I am from Honduras, we have dozens if not hundreds of plants that belong to foreign companies who take advantage of how the rules are set, and they have a minimum wage that is lower than the rest of the country's, the working conditions are not so great, so I don't see were the riches are trickling down to the poor.
Also, let's get it straight and not pretend something, no country behind the iron curtain was ever a socialist country they were all totalitarian dictatorships, besides I already told you I am not so keen on socialism either, even though Europe apparently has a political mixture which is not working that bad, except to the good people of the UK.
The kibbutz are mainly socialist and they work just fine, of course they are quite small, I don't think that would work on a large scale.