Ah, great discussion!
The reason I would prefer explicitly using the label anarchy or voluntaryism over classical liberalism (which I'm also a big fan of, as you can probably tell) is that from my understanding classical liberalism leads to minarchy. It's like asking how much cancer would you like to leave in the body. When the option for any "ruler" is still on the table, then we eventually get distortions of power. The United States started as an experiment in what many might call minarchy or classical liberalism. As a constitutional republic, it either was powerless to prevent the largest military empire the world has ever known or it directly led to its existence. For that reason, looking at history, I want to use different labels and try different mechanisms for social organization while being very clear about the base rules: no rulers.
Yes, we will have rules. Yes, we will have structure. It will be hyper local and voluntary. As you say, in large groups, things break down unless we rely on simple rules to build emergent properties which work at scale. To me, that's what the blockchain enables.
That said, I fully appreciate and respect your criticism that anarchy is simply classical liberalism without doing the hard work beforehand. I'd instead say it relies more on order out of chaos principles we see in nature instead of trying to prematurely optimize or build structure which can end up hindering a dynamic, chaotic system.
Also, on a basic level, if classical liberalism allows for military rulers or for people with a monopoly on the initiation of force within a geographic region, then it breaks down for me logically because I don't think any individual has that right and I don't know how any individual could logically create a process to delegate a right they don't have.
nicely put. Ah, this is good, we have a solid point of disagreement here among the congruence, and I hadn't thought it through before so I have an opportunity to maybe learn something important. Here's the rub: I don't believe in setting out political theories that define what arrangements individual sovereign beings can or cannot put in place in a given context, as long as what they put in place sticks to the founding principles that wholed (deliberate) the edifice together. It is interesting - you seem to be limiting sovereign freedom to agree to set up monopoly on the inititation of force in a given context - in the name of preserving freedom. It is not individuals that give that right, contrary to your fear - like all legitimate social arrangements, that decision is a product of the decision making process of sovereign right holders.
If you hold, from the outset, that sovereign right holders cannot decide to do this, how can sovereign right holders agree to use force to enforce rights and obligations? Where is law and order? Your policemen have a monopoly on the use of force delegated in a specific context when they tackle violent crime. How is this different for military rule in a specific context? Cake and eat it comes to mind. The beauty of rights/duties theories is that they are crucially deontological - they lay down principle prior to all context, and have nothing, whatsoever, to say about contexts that emerge later - that is down to evolution/reassertion/revision, which has its proper place.
This is why the Bush era onwards dilution of rights because of national emergency (right!) is illegal and illegitimate. Rights and obligations kick in, powerfully, when it is hard to have them - not when it is easy - that is the difference between authoritarian states (which US post-Bush certainly is - likely much earlier) and genuinely Liberal ones. Yes, sovereign right holders have the right to delegate force monopolies in specific contexts- and they equally have the right to then withdraw consent when the context changes. That is exactly why the Deep State is constantly working behind the scenes to maintain international disorder (context), to stop the legitimate right holders of the planet from withdrawing their consent to their monopoly of force. Their behaviour is illegal, they should properly be dismantled and arrested. This is a practical law application failure (Koinonia!), not a failure of theory.
Your position, if I read it correctly, is consequentialist - and that means that fundamentally you cannot build it on rights/duties theory, and we cannot have rights. Yet, I think you want them as an anarchist, or you're screwed. So which is it - can we right holders delegate context specific force and then withdraw it when context changes - or must our freedom to protect our basic sovereignty be sacrificed on the alter of your consequentialist fears? That's why I think anarchism hasn't thought this through, and you sound just like a Classical Liberal to me... Drum roll....
I don't think "rights" are a "truth" just like many big "T" Truths people like to believe exist. I think it all comes about by social consensus (which is again why I'm such a fan of blockchain technologies which are designed to achieve consensus).
More on that here: What If There Is No Big "T" Truth?
You mentioned "monopoly" a few times in your comment.
Why?
I don't agree. Why does it have to be a monopoly and not a group of competing service providers, all striving to best meet the best interpretation of the social consensus?
I could go on, but maybe this video will best explain what I'd prefer to see instead of monopolies.
To answer your question:
YES! But not to a monopoly maintained purely through funds stolen form individuals. I much prefer regulation that actually works such as the emergent property of order out of chaos due to simple rules (Non Aggression Principle, self-ownership, Philosophy of Liberty, etc) which evolve through competition in the marketplace.
I'm not familiar with Koinonia, but if your solution involves belief in a deity, we may already miss each other there as I gave up eternity.
Also, please, don't call them "your policemen." To me, they are violent gang members. Thug enforcers of the state. Detroit Threat Management is a much better solution, IMO.
Red herrings and misunderstanding here: I didn’t claim ‘rights’ as a ‘truth’ – I don’t need to. I claim ‘rights’ as the foundational building block of a viable political theory that achieves what we want – personal freedom-(or yours-equilibrium) among sovereign, interdependent beings. This Truth as absolute argument is a total red herring. Think about it – I point out, clearly, that rights can evolve and be revised. Equally – this argument from you is functionally self-contradictory, again red herring, it gets us nowhere, e.g., My Big T truth is that there is no Big T truth. Wordplay and an unnecessary distraction.
You claim I keep using the term ‘monopoly’ as though this had nothing to do with your argument. I refer you back to your own words – quote “if classical liberalism allows for military rulers or for people with a monopoly on the initiation of force… … then it breaks down for me logically…” So, just responding to you in your own terms, this is right at the heart of your issue here - and clarifying my disagreement with your conclusions – go back and check.
Okay, let’s cut through this ‘…But not to a monopoly maintained purely through funds stolen from individuals. I much prefer regulation that actually works such as the emergent property of order out of chaos..’ etc, etc. Okay, again you are basically spelling out that you want to establish a functioning political system – fine – your (T)truths are ‘non-aggression principle, self-ownership, philosophy of liberty… which evolve through competition… etc, etc . So tell me – how do any of these ‘truths’ you are touting here contradict Classical Liberalism? Isn’t that exactly what I’ve been saying to you since the very outset? The moment you codify these (T) truths formally, you go right into rights/duties theory. You’re just dodging the work – rather – you’ve misdiagnosed the problem and are making a lot of unnecessary work for yourself, and that work has, delightfully – let’s celebrate this - already been done.
Hehehe – Koinonia isn’t a deity. Check it out. It is partly as I described, it comes from Classical Greek thought – there is a limit to how many members of a properly functioning political society we can have. The moment we cross that threshold – which is quantitative and qualitative – function breaks down, and even the best of founding principles (i.e. Classical Liberalism) will break down with it. FYI – I’m not a believer in anything, I’m a provisional knower, open to new data. You gave up eternity – that sounds like something lost, and like belief turned into its antithesis, disbelief. Two sides of the same trap. Speculation – is there a displacement here, your current belief in anarchism, a surrogate ‘eternity’?
Again – ‘don’t call them ‘your policemen’ … they are a violent gang…. Quite. My point is very simple – when social function breaks down, what should be legally appointed keepers of the peace for right-holders easily morph into ‘violent gang members’. As I pointed out to you last time, this is an issue of proper application of existing law – in this instance, they are only policemen in name (so not what I was writing about, you misrepresent me here) but are, as you rightly say, criminals. You appear to be dodging this relevant distinction for emotional effect rather than addressing the actual point.
My problem here is that you appear to be misdiagnosing the illness. You believe the ailment is the political theory, and that your replacement theory, anarchism, is the cure. I am pointing out that anarchism is just Classical Liberalism that simply hasn’t fleshed out its assumptions, and so at best it is a pure distraction when there are far better things to place our attention on. You have not, anywhere here, addressed this; you have just restated your opposition in scrambled format without addressing my laid-out objections.
Our societies are vastly over-centralised, with a tiny ruling oligarchy and masses of mind-numbed slaves – what we need is a dramatic devolution of political power to allow proper, responsive, sovereign-right/duty holder citizenship. We can make a start on this by being vocal supporters of Classical Liberalism, and arresting the criminal oligarchy who are clinging to power through illegal psychological and physical thuggery. In this context, calls to anarchism strike me as pure naivety, plays right into their hands, and does nothing for us. Classical Liberalism is one of the finest creations of the human species, ever – and it requires precisely this devolution of power (Koinonia) in order to function. You are evidently judging the so-called liberalism in its authoritarian disguise that is prevalent throughout the immature West as exemplifying Classical Liberalism. It does not – it dresses itself up like it to borrow credibility, but this pink-lipsticked pig is a criminal, oligarchy-driven sham. In a world overflowing with semi-educated authoritarian-minded children, the maturity of real Liberalism is constantly misunderstood and misapplied – and then everyone blames and dismisses Liberalism, or sometimes attempts to reformulate it in ill-considered terms. This is a knee-jerk; yours, thus far, is a fine example of the more highly refined versions of this reflex.
I’m happy to continue thrashing this out with you if you wish, but this last offering from you read far more like emotional attachment to pet beliefs than a serious attempt to address what I’m actually trying to convey – just my impression, mirrors are immensely valuable, however imperfect. Db
Sorry, I didn't put as much time into my last reply as I should have. Usually when people talk about "rights" a lot, they are thinking in terms of the absolute existence of them, which is why I responded as I did (I've had many of these conversations before). I have no intention of putting red herrings out there, but this is the natural of non-real time communication. We respond to what we think we're reading and there isn't an opportunity for real-time correction and feedback.
I think we agree more than we disagree and I also should have a better understanding of what you mean by Classical Liberalism and Koinonia to have a more constructive dialogue. From what little I understand now, it seems those are very similar to voluntaryism except they allow for a ruler to be put in place. Maybe I'm wrong about that. I didn't see your response to my point about the minarchy/classical liberalism ideals leading to the U.S. military industrial complex we have today. Yes, you can argue those ideals got off the rails and that's what caused the problem, but we've heard similar arguments from those who argue for the "ideal" of communism and complain it was an implementation problem that caused all that human suffering.
I'm not convinced voluntary, mutually beneficial actions are the best way forward, but I certainly hold that opinion currently. I don't call my ideals "Truths" with a big T, but I do think they are pretty darn compelling and I'm certainly open to something better if it exists given the current context of reality.
Possibly. I still want to improve the world which may have some evangelical "Jesus savior complex" world view roots to it.
I see politics as a way for managing power over others. I see anarchism not as a political philosophy but the appreciation that this approach is fundamentally flawed as it leads to corrupt centralization of power over time. You may think everything will do that as it's part of nature, but that's where us reading a lot of the same books may help such as Rothbard's For a New Liberty, a Libertarian Manifesto.
Either way, these are fun conversations, but we'd both probably get more out of them if they were dynamic in nature via video chat or something. Maybe we could do that at some point in the future. :)
Hi, yes correct, real-time correction and feedback is impossible, so it pays to read the actual words. We all do this of course. The beauty of this format is you can take all the time you want, and it is impossible to fudge previous claims because we can directly quote each other, irrefutably. It helps keep honesty, takes emotional knee-jerking away, and opens up a genuine possibility for personal growth, bypassing ego - the scourge of our world (and I suspect an interdimensional interloper). I wouldn’t be who I am now if it wasn’t for exchanges like this. On with it.
If voluntarism, a priori, will not allow sovereign individuals to put a ruler in place if they wish it, which is your explicit stated desire here, then it (and you) is (are) authoritarian, by definition. The road to hell is often paved with excellent intentions. To not be authoritarian it would have to hold that there exist foundational principles that trump the ‘good’ that voluntarism seeks. There are – they are called rights/duties – but of course you cannot have that, because that would turn it into… wait for it… Liberalism.
Voluntarism either roots itself in freely held and renewed foundational rights, or it is functionally self-contradictory: – it orders people to be free of rulers, in all contexts; whatever they choose for themselves, because that’s what you think is good for them from your all-seeing perspective now. For someone who has given up on eternity, it seems you have not given up an eternal view. In other words, the power resides in the theory, the idea of ‘the good’ you hold – and not in the free, spontaneous choices of sovereign individuals, capable of revision and evolution way beyond your little view now, in perpetuity.
You are correct, you should familiarise yourself with Classical Liberalism – an excellent modern interpretation is Rawles Theory of Justice. You are right, we have much in common - you are a Liberal (not liberal) whether you know it or not, and clinging to labels like voluntarism/anarchism is doing you no favours. I have spelt out, in great detail now, why.
I did respond to your claim that minarchy/classical liberalism leads to the mi complex – I pointed out to you that liberalism is not, and never was Classical Liberalism, and that one major requirement of CL is that it can only function properly in political ‘units’ of appropriate population size/quality. The Military-Industrial-Intelligence oligarchy is a result of utterly illegitimate centralised power, and so-called ‘liberalism-capitalism’ is fundamentally a pseudo-socialism, throwing out some peanuts of so-called rights, that can be usurped by the mighty state at the drop of a hat. Classical Liberalism does not lead to this, and only a moment’s thought from the relevant perspective will show you that. If you don’t implement the theory, don’t blame the theory for the results of what you actually do.
Well you might not be, but I am certainly convinced that voluntary, mutually beneficial actions are the best way forward. What? Are you entertaining the notion that forced, mutually destructive actions may be a good idea? We’re surely just discussing which political theory has the best chance of maximising our mutual chances of this aren’t we – I didn’t realise that ‘hey, hell on earth might be a good idea’ was on the table? Of course voluntary, mutually beneficial activity is our aim – and our best current model for achieving that is CL – not half-assed anarchism/voluntarism. I’ve explained why (several times and ways now I think), but you’ve offered no alternative I haven’t already included in CL, and you’ve offered no critique of my position. Saying ‘well I just think the world would be better if no one was in charge…’ and then pointing out demons is not political theory, it is wishful thinking.
And of course politics is a way of managing power over others – what else would it be? I absolutely want to manage power over you friend – I want to be sure that you will not infringe on my basic liberty and pursuit of personal meaning and growth for your own selfish purposes. I assume you rather think that a good idea too. You are right, anarchism is not much of a political philosophy – I think it is personal, egoistic posturing; it is a statement of the ‘good’ that you hold to be true for everyone. You don’t want corrupt centralisation. Good, me neither. What causes corrupt centralisation – do the work, stop blaming it on bad guys/rulers? Two things – dumbass individuals (impossible to legislate against) and dumbass political systems. Centralisation – well, disperse political decision-making power to all members (rights/duties basis and democracy slapped on top), and do not dilute individual input (limit the size of the political grouping/society). So, Classical Liberalism, with its essential mighty dollop of decentralisation. And get this straight – whether the people in the next village decide to elect an emperor or not is, bluntly, none of your fucking business – as long as they keep their rights and you keep yours, everything will work out just fine. I will bet you that, in time, no one will be stupid enough to decide they want an Empress – but the transition period, globally, will be fascinating, there will be enough dramatic material for century’s worth of books, films and games…
I remain convinced that anarchists, libertarians, voluntarists, etc, are half-assed well intentioned Classical Liberals, who have been hoodwinked that so-called liberalism is actually the crap espoused by Libtards, a perfectly appropriate label – those jokers are basically clueless nutty children.
At this time a ‘video chat’ thing wouldn’t work for me – absolutely nothing personal; for years I have taped over laptop cameras, I don’t use skype, I don’t use my real name or much that could identify me (I keep my tinfoil neatly tucked in under the ears). It keeps me free to unleash honestly – and some egos, as you well know, really need taking down a peg or ten. I certainly wouldn’t consider you one of those I promise you, if I ever decide to ditch the anonymity it would be a pleasure to chat with you face to face.
One final word: – if you want to build a house, a half-assed foundation and first layer of bricks will probably restrict you to a rather dismal ground level shed – however nice your garden, and however beautifully you designed your upstairs bedrooms beforehand. Your ‘giving up on eternity’ brought an image straight to mind, and I’ll share it (this is not originally mine I should say) – it reminded me of a fish, swimming in the ocean, talking about how it had given up on water. I think if you start paying attention to the actual facts right under your nose, and less attention to flighty imagination and second-hand stories about the world, you’ll be a Classical Liberal blossoming here in eternity before you know it, and I for one think we’ll all be better for that. Db
Thanks for the book recommendation. Unfortunately it's not on audible.com, my normal go-to for audio books, but I'll hunt around for it.
I would be completely find with people voluntarily choosing their own system of government. The key is consent and voluntary action. It's possible you may be straw manning my argument a bit since what you keep describing as Classical Liberalism sounds quite like what I envision voluntaryism based on the NAP to be. If I get around to understanding the labels you're using by reading the book you recommended maybe we can have a more interesting conversation about what specific areas we actually disagree about (not just spend time trying to define the words we're using).
We seem to use words differently. Defensive use of force is a wonderful thing, but I would never describe that as a "power over" someone else. The use of defensive force is a rational, logical response to someone else's initiation of force. The non-aggression principle is clear on this.
Curious where you got that. By "if they wish," you're describing a voluntary agreement which has no conflict with voluntaryism (but might have some conflict with a shared understanding of "ruler"). Again, I think we're just struggling here with arguing for or against words we use differently. Wittgenstein would be amused.
My views on voluntaryism are based on my understanding of where our species is headed as far as Maslow's Hierarchy of needs. It's contextual and completely open to reinterpretation given a different context. To be even more specific, it's based on my experiences living in the United States.
If the U.S. didn't implement Classical Liberalism adequately to be used as an example, can you point to a historical example that helps me better understand your position?
Thanks for an interesting conversation.
Hi, you don’t need to thank me, this is the point of places like steemit in my view, and will probably lead to the acceleration of the evolution of our species – and that’s just our conversation, haha! Well, reading Rawls, or anything else, won’t really help you understand my position, I’m afraid you have to ask me. Truth is, I’ve always been leery of authority in a major way, and I’ve never been a ‘follower’ of any school, or had a core textbook belief system. I’ve slowly come to consider myself a Liberal, but not classical (property rights are of no great interest to me, though they are certainly relevant in the evolution of rights theory). I’m certainly not the libtard sham. My original political study, and what I probably know best, was Marx – I learned enough to find out where he went horribly wrong – but he was quite, quite brilliant, and had some wonderful insights regarding the human condition. It is not wise to throw out the baby with the bathwater. I firmly believe in minimal government, drastic devolution – and lots and lots of community experimentation encouraged by the genius of unshackled human freedom. I recommended Rawls because I came across him briefly nearly 25 years ago now, and my impression was that he was the best modern exponent of the Liberal model. I don’t recall how much he delves into the classics, which as I recall are focused a lot on the issue of ownership. You are quite right about definitions, but if you think I’m strawmanning you’ll need to cite, or I can’t deal with it. Might be, but not intentional.
I’m not an expert on Classical Liberalism, or classical anything. My views are a unique hodgepodge, largely made up in the moment of asking. In discussing this with you I have likely conflated a number of disparate, half-remembered political theories into my inadequate notion of CL, and presented to you as though it were a concrete, pristine theoretical edifice. It will not be. I think the point is the interaction, and the growth that is possible through it. I remain convinced that rights/duties theories, divorced from any concept of ‘the good’, are by far the best method to preserve individual liberty, voluntary association, sovereignty, etc, etc., and I hope it has been valuable for you to see it through that lens. It is clear enough to me that Voluntarism/Libertarianism are an offshoot of CL, and so they must, inherently, be built on the same rights/duties assumptions. You are perfectly entitled to consider yourself a voluntarist consistent with these principles, but I am very wary of rooting that position in terms of how society ‘should/ought’ to be, and I think your arguments are at their weakest when you make claims like ‘don’t want military leaders with monopoly of force…’ etc. I know what you’re driving at, but I don’t think decisions like that have any place in the foundations of political theory, for reasons I outlined last time. I think we are still where we started though – your voluntarist version of Liberalism, particularly anarchism, is a vision of a future that I believe will likely arrive, but when we get there, we won’t even be talking about it, it will just be self-evident. In the meantime, I think for pragmatic reasons it is better to focus on what is easiest to spread in the societies we are embedded in now – basically, rights based Liberalism, encouraging ever contracting government, and ever multiplying and complexifying communities of freely associating sovereign individuals. From most outsiders’ points of view, on most political topics, I doubt there is much daylight between us at all. Db