https://steemit.com/poll/@steemitblog/poll-flags-or-downvotes
SteemIt, Inc has presented a question to the community regarding flags vs. downvotes and although it's an old topic I happen to think this is important.
The flag feature has long been misunderstood. As a stakeholder you have the ability to add or remove rewards from a post using what is currently represented on the UI as a Flag.
My vote is YES, please change the icon on the UI to a downvote button near the upvote.
Please make it look like the upvote only RED and pointing down.
On first use present a text box with a checkbox to not show it again...
The text should say, "Downvotes Remove Rewards from the Author, Are you sure?" (maybe present the amount would be reduced.)
Please do not add complexity to the training process regarding flags vs. downvotes by keeping both items and trying to explain different use cases. New users will not understand they will use them incorrectly and start problems for no reason and without any gains.
Please do not confuse the difference between UI and code. If large stakeholders are being abusive to end users that has nothing to do with the Interface. (notice I said "If")
Keep it easy and do not add "Cognitive Load" to the new users. (yes, I hate myself for using those words, but I hope they will be understood)
The goal of every Interface change should be to reduce Training Points, not increase them.
I know a lot of you who understand the system have nifty ideas on how to use this feature, but our primary concern should be NEW USERS because that is who we need! They don't understand the economic structure and should not be presented with difficult choices.
Here is the link to go weigh in.
https://steemit.com/poll/@steemitblog/poll-flags-or-downvotes
That's all,
I like it.
People are missing the point when it comes to flag/downvotes, and I think that just reinforces your point even more.
Do you think it is undervalued? vote it. Do you think it is overvalued? Downvote it. Simple as that. Are we a faucet? Or are we actually trying to properly evaluate things and have proper comparisons of value? (Yeah, it appears not many think this way)
This, 100% this. Most comments I’ve seen don’t seem to grasp this at all.
its not about value though, downvotes will be used as tools to disagree with opinion because the whole perception of their usage will change with the design.
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Which is also the right of the stakeholder. While I wish they wouldn't it is them utilizing their stake and it already happens which is confusing when the UI makes it seem like it shouldn't.
So everyone on Steem uses downvote if they disagree with something people post cos its now a simple opposite to agreeing....the biggest 'stakeholders' whether worthy being so or not
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Whether it’s a flag or downvote button is not going to change this, the discussion is solely UI.
As far as the culture of current downvotes - If a large stakeholder is using downvotes unjustly, then many times in the past the community has stepped forward to counter.
If the community agrees with the initial downvote or possibly the fact that it has turned into some sort of childish fight on both sides, they most likely will not.
Which is why I feel normalizing downvotes and changing the culture is the only way to fix this.. what it appears like on the UI just makes it easier to understand, it will not change the underlying issues you are mentioning though.
Oh boy , opening up a can of worms at Dtube lol. As sometimes there can definitely be some way overvalued video Posts there. Just trash, getting BIG payouts
I actually really like this and after discussing this in chat, I am not even sure we should warn on the downvote.
No one wants to say this fact:
Upvote it- you get 25% rewards.
Downvote it- you get 0.
For most people that's important. That's why there are not many flagging now.
Yup, this is also true.
(Although need classification on the 25% figure. I know what you mean though)
Side-by-side upvote/downvote buttons have a simplistic elegance. It also starts to shift the idea away from 'flagging' (does somebody review it? is it going to be censored) toward an action that establishes reward consensus for the post... which is what upvotes/downvotes actually are.
Even experienced Steemians sometimes forget that upvotes/downvotes are just a protocol mechanism to establish consensus on the distribution of the reward pool. They're not a tool for censorship, oppression, etc. Being downvoted doesn't mean anything except that somebody thinks your rewards were too high.
I gave you an upvote. If somebody thinks you're getting too much, they're probably wrong, but they can downvote to express their disagreement.
I don't like the functionality at all. At its best it is a feature that punishes controversial discussions. At worst, it is a tool for haves to bully the have nots. I understand the motivation but I believe there are large unintended consequences if we aren't careful.
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Well as a stakeholder I think it is extremely important we have the ability to fight abuse. We just have to teach people it is normal to receive flags.
If we have large stakeholders abusing their power that is a different issue which has nothing to do with the UI design.
The same tool that can fight abuse can lead to abuse. In my time using Steem I've received several dollars in down votes for expressing unpopular opinions.
Down votes are supposed to counter abuse. Despite having this feature, certain individuals earn the largest shares of the rewards pool by making several posts a day containing absolutely zero text. Why do I not mention them by name? I'm concerned about getting singled out by their followers, as I have been in the past.
Right now, the rich abuse the system with impunity because they can down vote you harder than you can down vote them.
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Changing the blockchain rules is not being discussed. We are discussing how to best communicate how the blockchain works via an Interface.
Alright then. The best idea is to remove it entirely from the UI. It's not like steemit hasn't done that before.
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I hear your opinion and I get it, but I couldn't disagree more. :)
Said with complete respect.
Agree to disagree, then!
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Youre mixing up abuse and opinion which is ecactly the problem this change will exacerbate.
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Unintended consequences can mean anything.
That’s like saying there’s an unintended consequence of restaurants cleaning their dining room, so we shouldn’t clean the dining room.
Just because consequence are unintended does not mean they are unimaginable. I have two examples in my comment, after all.
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The proposed is a UI design change that has no impact on the core functionality of upvotes/downvotes. Can you think of any stakeholder with enough to 'bully the have nots' that doesn't know enough about Steem to deliver downvotes through some other channel than Steemit UI?
I've had witnesses tell me that it is no longer possible to use the blockchain to convert SBD to Steem. Out of sight, out of mind. So, to answer your question, yes, I can think of a few that don't think past the UI.
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I hope that any witness that told you conversions are no longer possible immediately lost your witness vote.
If somebody doesn't remember the difference between condenser and protocol, they should not be witnesses.
#sbi-skip
@josephsavage btw, I believe SBI will do great things for Steem. I'm leasing thousands of SP to it and using the profits to buy shares for undervalued content creators. I'm doing this because I believe the power of the upvote is stronger than the power of the flag.
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That being said, I do appreciate the real possibility of most power users doing it anyway
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I think the analogy would be, say a restaurant hires a busboy to clean. But he starts cleaning tables when people are still eating. This is an improper use of "cleaning." So the restaurant says, "we don't like the way people are cleaning, so lets get rid of all of the cleaning supplies." Problem solved?
I think the more appropriate analogy is the restaurant wants to clean off the tables by letting anyone take anything off any table. People put a lot of work into cooking a dish and someone throws it out before it is eaten. Why bother putting effort into cooking in a restaurant like that?
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Doesn't matter what the analogy is because you said:
Which, to me, means no cleaning because people might clean wrong.
Fine, let's use your analogy where everyone feel entitled to "clean" everyone else's table, which I agree is a terrible situation. So the restaurant says, "we don't like the way people are cleaning, so lets get rid of all of the cleaning supplies." Problem solved?
I don't think changing the analogy makes your solution of eliminating the functionality at all suddenly work.
Perhaps there is more than one way to clean a table.
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The most sensible comment of all. THIS is exactly what will happen
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@whatsup,
While we (STEEMIT and it's INC) have a lot to do, WTH they brought up this old topic? For me this is better, flag is a flag, upvote is upvote! Better you call a DRAMA token on their post lol :D
Cheers~
POTENTIAL rewards :-)
You are right! Inertia corrected me too! Thanks.
I mostly agree with this but I would bring up two points. 1) There's probably no reason to tell the user that downvoting will remove rewards any more than there is a reason to tell them that upvoting will add rewards. Some people already think that flagging them amounts to stealing and this would probably just reinforce that perception. 2) Changing the flag to a downvote will probably result in more people downvoting opinions they disagree with (regardless of whether there is a pop-up telling them about rewards)...or maybe not as there seems to be a lot of that already.
At the end of the day though, having a downvote instead of a flag in the way that you describe would be far more consistent.
Remember we are not talking about changing the under lying blockchain code. Simply the user interface. It is important that the user interface just displays what is going to happen in the simplest terms possible. The whole reason for an Interface is not having to work with and understand the code.
Your balance is below $0.3. Your account is running low and should be replenished. You have roughly 10 more @dustsweeper votes. Check out the Dustsweeper FAQ here: https://steemit.com/dustsweeper/@dustsweeper/dustsweeper-faq
My vote was "No" due to Flag Wars sounding so much more better than Downvote Wars. 😎
!dramatoken
I love the attitude.
Such drama, you've earned a DRAMA!
To view or trade
DRAMAgo to steem-engine.com.I guess it's okay...for now...I might change my mind at a later date if people start 'gang attacks' against people they just don't agree with to cause harm.
Wimpy Bullies who hide behind the cloak of Cyber-Space really suck...IMHO
I agree! Just starting my post...
Freedom means tolerance for assholes.
Hmmnnnnnnn... I'll have to read that one, once you post it; well...I guess I'll have to 'wait' till you 'post' it, unless my Supernatural powers kick in...???
People do get upset when they get flagged, but it is a totally valid part of Steem. We do need to be able to adjust rewards both ways, but in some cases people are scared to do so in case of retaliation. It might be neat if downvoting could be done anonymously :)
This would be pretty easy to setup. Take open-source bid bot code, tweak it to deliver downvotes instead of upvotes, ensure that memo decryption is in place, and auto-refund any bids that aren't encrypted.
If there is actually demand for anonymous downvoting, you will have steady bids and be able to offer delegation rewards just like any other bid bot. There may be less demand than you think, though, and you will have to deal with a steady stream of idiots who send you bids without realizing that it's a downvote bid-bot, not an upvote bid-bot. (It would be hilarious to call it 'downvotebot' and still list on steembottracker though)
I'm sure someone has thought of doing this. It needs to be well used or you could match up bids and flags.
That's a good point, and I'm not convinced there would be enough demand for that unless regular abuse fighters started using it too.
#sbi-skip
Can we also add a "meh" button for when I don't feel like upvoting or downvoting?
How's this, I stole it from the internet!
Please could you share a non expired link to sanesteemchat?
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https://discord.gg/BnJsQW
Yep. Up- and downvoting will be better known by new users from other applications, so training should be rather easy. It's also more intuitive that this is the "counter action" to adding rewards to a post through an upvote.
Sure, temporarily new users might get in the way of larger stakes who will hate-downvote them, but:
Obviously, there will still be people who won't get it. But what can you do...
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Always simplify the utility of a new change.
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I absolutely disagree with this change to 'downvote' as my understanding from the Steemit inc post was that downvotes could be used to simply disagree with a post's content as opposed to it being used to flag breaches of guidelines or 'rules'.
Its all very well them saying its to provide balance to the reward pool but the power shift in the use of removing rewards will of course again favour large stakeholders who can then use the downvote as a valid tool for censoring.
Lets imagine you're an argumentative git who is of a strong opinion.....you'd be screwed!
I think its another nail in the coffin of free speech and along with Steemit forcing their choice of post onto my feed as 'featured'posts, its another step in the totally wrong direction.
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You are talking about the blockchain design. Everything you said is already true.
I am talking about UI design, which is a means to explain how things work in the simpliest form.
I was flagging a few posts recently and it actually took me a while to find the button so it could probably be better placed i think...
I mean, yeah. It's exactly what I said, I dunno, three years ago, but no one would listen. Now everyone's saying it, and get pats on the back for being so smart.
Anyway, it won't matter. Too little, too late. The ship sailed already.
Yes many people said it.... Agreed. Am I missing these pats? I didn't pretend I was smart, I just wanted to tell them not to make it hard, because they like to make things hard.
Or just quit using Steemit like most people who have been flagged (or down voted) do.
And leave Steemit head orifice to replace all the ex real users with bots.
It's like watching the Titanic sinking...
This is the best option ngl.
I'm totally going to mock both you and @frot in this comment.
Don't you love the people who come back to tell you why they aren't using something, while they are actually using it?
I do! And that is why I remain bullish in the long term. :)
When you don't care... you don't come back to express your lack of caring. That only happens when you do care!
So there...
sticks out tongue
People do stuff that is stupid all the time, though. Speedrunning Mega Man X is really stupid, yet I'm top 20 in the world. Just because someone does it, doesn't mean it's not stupid.
I'm patient. It's slow and struggling in rough waters, but it isn't sinking.
YET. :) Hi, good to see you.
You know all my posts are automatically uploaded from my blog and I haven't posted directly to Steemit for months?
But sometimes I stop by to check replies or give myself a bot vote, and holy cow what a mess!
Hi back, I just like to bleat a bit sometimes...
Well, I am for Downvote ONLY if it will NOT work in the same way a flags currently do. That is, reducing users reputation to oblivion hence resulting in their content being hidden. That's censorship, and it doesn't make us any better than the centralized main stream media we are all trying to run away from.
I Say Replace Flags with Report, for content that is inappropriate and deserves to be removed from the platform. Of Course that would mean having moderators on the other end to review this said reports.
Downvotes Should Only Affect the Rewards , Not the Reputation.
We are not talking about changing the functionality of the blockchain. It works how it works.
We are talking about how it displays on one site... SteemIt.com.
So, it is a matter of what is displayed not how it functions.
Rep is also just a display issue, but I do agree it matters.
Heck, then it doesn't matter how it displays, they might as well put a poop emoji and get on with it. Aaargh
Seriously though, the functionality is what we need to be addressing before we can even think about the display! We shall revisit this topic come 2022!
Actually, the rep never goes on the blockchain at all. It is just a number on the display, it doesn't do anything.
It's hard to get your head around which is which.
Why not both?
Here me out.
Downvote will equal like 50% of upvote Voting Power.
While a flag uses 100%.
Just a random thought that came into my mind.
IDK if it good.
Others mentioned this also.. But the problem is training.
Social media platforms have high turn over and should always expect an influx of new users. We do not want to create training issues, we want to reduce the number of training issues we already have.
What do you mean training issues? Wouldn't the UX of Steemit hide the complexity?
having both and explaining them is a training issue.
My view is that the more options, the better. Interpretation will take some time to getting used to but it is part of every process.
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Is the downvote and flag buttons the same? I like that there are two buttons now, even if they are the same button in two locations. I support it even as it is dangerous like people say.
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