I really appreciate this post @garthfreeman, so first of all, thank you for sharing. You have a new follower for sure. Looking forward to your future posts :) Before I begin, I hope to discuss this further with grace that our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ did.
In terms of what you wrote about, basically talking about the incoherence of human morality and the problem of evil. I will not talk about Calvinism this early on. I claim myself to be a Calvinist, and for good reason.
As fellow Christians/theists, we believe in one God (being) and three persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). We believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins and resurrected to give us all eternal life. This is a fact both biblically and historically.
Free will and evil are in fact coherent. Humanity and the Supreme God are two separate entities, on total opposites of the spectrum.
I believe that through free will, we are able to walk on a journey that will glorify Christ all the more; however, I say this with extreme caution because free will is not merely having our own wisdom to make our own decisions. First of all, God gave us a natural inclination to choose sin; so, no matter how many good deeds we did, our hearts are naturally still impure and rebellious towards our God. Most of the times, we end up being our own God - doing our own thing, sinning to our hearts "content" and enjoying the pleasures of this world.
We all deserve death, we deserve punishment. No one here is perfect. Why? Two reasons. The sin of Adam and Eve, and the ability to glorify Christ in our imperfection.
Thanks so much for your comment. I'm always up for discussions.
It's not that I think free will and evil are incoherent, but that if there is no free will then how can there be human morality.
This is basically my understanding of Calvinism: God made humanity with the predetermined outcome that some humans would receive salvation but most wouldn't. Further, the ones that don't receive salvation were made in such a was that they were incapable of behaving any different than they did but they were going to be eternally punished for it anyway.
So I don't see how free will fits with the T, U, L, I, or the P.
You say we all deserve death and punishment, but I see that as logically inconsistent. If some people were predetermined to go to hell it means they were created incapable of moral goodness yet still they are punished. That is unjust, and God cannot be unjust.
You have a different picture of God's character than I as well. You say that:
Does that sound good and just? Why would God make us so that we would be sure to sin and then punish us for doing what He made us to do? I can't see how that's moral. You have God CREATING evil.
Yes, I believe these hard topics are great discussions between believers and non-believers alike. May it continue to be a stepping stone in advancing our faith and loving our God all the more.
First of all, thank you for addressing that. I see where you are coming from. If free will is really just a myth, how can there me moral standards?
I believe John Calvin explains free will as us - humans - voluntarily choosing to sin, until we are transformed by the grace of God. I think this aligns with the T of TULIP - Total Depravity. Of course, there is an asterisk there. Free will can have so many different definitions in different contexts.
What free will here means is to make our own decisions. This is human nature. No one likes to be the same - hair, face, status, etc., and so, this is how we were built by God. Furthermore, when you say that we His people "were created incapable of moral goodness yet still they are punished. That is unjust, and God cannot be unjust." I take that in you saying that by the moral standards ordained from the Supreme God, people are incapable of knowing His goodness simply because they were predestined not to be saved in the first place. I believe this goes back to the matter of free will and God's justice.
God is outside of the Universe because He is the creator of it. Us as humans cannot comprehend His predestination, and thus should be fearful of His sovereignty. That's why as believers, fearing the LORD is biblical and natural.
Furthermore, I believe that God made us different apart from other creatures in the world. He gave us the rationale to communicate in different languages, have moral choices, and ultimately, to give Him glory. Life's purpose outside of glorification is limited and futile in my view. Sin cannot fill our hearts with full satisfaction.
Finally, I don't think God created evil; rather, He made it permissible back in Genesis 3 - the fall of Adam and Eve. If you really want to talk about having an unjust God, we should discuss the fall. I think the question "Why did God allow Adam and Eve to sin?" is the wrong question. God is perfect, just, and holy. He is outside of sin. We as HUMANS are the fallen nation. Humanity and the one true God are completely different entities.
Rather, I would challenge you with the following question, "Why did Adam and Eve fall to the Serpent?" Tempted to be just like God? To replace God in their lives? You see, in this instance, God created the Serpent; but, the Serpent's heart was inclined to leading them into sin. Why? Choice. Just because the serpent's heart was wrong, doesn't the Creator of the Serpent is wrong either. I don't think you would blame your friend for breaking a window if his son was the culprit.
Did God predestine Adam and Eve to sin? I would think so. Without the fall, there would be no need for us to be saved through Jesus Christ. It's all in His divine plan, something bigger than we can all comprehend.
I don't think you're quite getting my point about human nature. To be clear, I do not believe in predestination and my explanation was an attempt to illustrate why. What I'm saying is that if God made men and predetermined what they were going to be and do, then God really can't punish men for sin because they were unable to not sin. Under predestination man only does what God programmed him to do so how can that be morally wrong? If I made a chair, but wanted a ladder, I would now punish the chair for not being a ladder. That may be a bad analogy but to me, it only makes sense if man had actually possessed the potential to not sin and of their own free will decided to anyway.
I don't really have an issue with why God permitted Adam and Eve to fall because I believe in free will. I can't understand how you can hold that Adam and Eve had an actual choice, but God predestined what choice they would make. That seems incoherent to me. Rather, in my view, God did actually give Adam and Eve free will to chose, and they could have chosen to refuse the serpent. However, God, having created the serpent, Adam, and Eve, knew what was going to happen by virtue of His intimate knowledge of His creation coupled with infinite intelligence and wisdom.
It's the tension between Free Will (Choice) and predestination that I'm questioning.
Moreover, suffering is caused by our emotional state. We feel suffering because we feel like we are worse off than our previous condition/circumstances; however, suffering does not always come after sinful acts. It is all relative, based off primarily emotional distress. This is why Jesus Christ's life, death, and resurrection are simply amazing. Although he seemed as if he was suffering, he did not sin. He was the innocent lamb from which He was slain for our iniquities. Sin and suffering are usually paired together, but do not have to be.
Now, the problem of evil in our lives is quite tragic. We live in a broken world. God intended it to be broken, and He is the supreme God. However, the problem of evil is extremely small in the glimpse of eternity. Our Lord did not promise good to all mankind because it will not happen in this lifetime. Our purpose in this present world is not to enjoy it and then hope for the best. Our purpose is to find the truth, our reason for living, and that is to submit our lives in Jesus Name, and to live for Him until He comes again.
You see, my friend, even though people's circumstances are hard - financial struggles, poor, homeless, abused, addicted - the common ground that they can live on is life. Why didn't they die from their addiction? Why didn't they die from their suicide attempt? You see, God has spared their life because there is a bigger purpose for them in this lifetime. They are still alive, breathing.
This is the same with the other spectrum of people, who are rich and famous. Deep down, they are just as broken and needy as the ones who are poor and broken. In our human state, we all need a Savior, and that is Jesus. No one is exempt, no matter what situation they are in.
I'd like to conclude with this. Sin is an ugly thing. We have all sinned, and we have all fallen short from God's glory. This is our natural inclination - to rebel against God and not put Him first in our lives. Unfortunately, not everyone is going to seek God because we are naturally like this.
When Jesus left Earth, He gave us - His true followers - the Holy Spirit. Sin is real, but God is bigger than sin. He paid the penalty for our sin on the Cross. As ambassadors and professing Christians, may we shine the light on God's sovereignty and grace, and show the world that there is Hope, and that Hope is Jesus.
Thank you for reading! Please excuse my long replies - I am just really passionate about the Gospel. Thank you for sharing once again. God bless :)
Thanks for the comments, I think these kinds of discussions are fascinating.
You know, I don't have a problem with the idea of God having a plan for our lives. I have a problem with the idea that it's immutable. I think the bible shows that God's plan doesn't always work out.
Here, what God intended was prevented by the will of the people of Jerusalem.
-Jonah 3:10 - When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it.
Here, God changed His mind because the people of Nineveh repented.
I see it more like a parent, who has great plans for their child, and works hard to provide opportunities for the child. In the end, though, the child isn't going to be a Dr., or a Lawyer, or President based on what the parent wants.
I have a question about your views, though. If God created us as sinners, which is what I think you mean by saying sinning is our natural inclination, in what sense do we deserve punishment? I mean, if we were made to sin, why should we be punished for doing what we were made to do? Also, if you have God making us sinners, then how is His punishment of us just?
One last from the Bible:
If God made man with the inclination to sin, doesn't that mean that sin actually came through God, and not man?
Thanks for the interesting discussion!
Agreed, I am definitely loving this discussion so far! Thanks for conversing once again :)
When you say God's plan is fixated, you mean it can never be changed? I would have to say yes, that is indeed His nature. Perfect and divine, does not make mistakes!
In discussing Matthew 23:37, I think you bring up a good point, but a limited one. Yes, God laments over Zion for being rebellious and unwilling. However, I don't think God is disappointed in His plan not coming into fruition; rather, I think it is a disappointment in their rebellious hearts. Yes, Jesus Christ had emotions on Earth, but, do you really think the Creator's sovereignty and wisdom is undermined by His unwilling creation? If God has to stoop low and do it from the will of man, God's sovereignty should be questioned immediately.
Furthermore, that passage in Jonah 3:10 is amazing, where He displayed His mercy and love toward the people of Nineveh. However, do you think without the will of the Lord imputed in their hearts, that the people of Nineveh done the same thing? I think the will of God far surpasses moral reasoning. We can all be moral/immoral by our own will; ONLY by the grace of God, we can experience a true transformation, one that is beyond morals.
I would say that your comparison with God and humanity, and parent and child are OK, but not completely accurate in what I think it is. God made us in His image, yes? As God's image bearers, we should strive to be like God? Where does the standard of God come from? Ourselves? If so, is truth relative or absolute? I think truth is absolute and we have come to know God. However, the power of sin has disconnected us from knowing God from birth, and made us sinful people. Now, the origin of our sinful nature started way back in Genesis 3, and it is the same way up until now.
God made sin permissible in this world because he made human's in that manner. He gave us the cognitive abilities to make decisions on our jobs, friends, etc. Did we as babies have a choice to be born with the parents who made us? There is room for God to do His will according to His great purpose and plan.
God and sin do no co-exist because God is perfect and sinless. God did not per say create us to be sinful; rather, God made humans to be image bearers of Christ and to glorify His name, but not under compulsion. He gave human's the ability to make decisions; or else, we would be robots just proclaiming God's glory. I believe God wants humanity to glorify Him willingly, by the grace of our Savior. Through the decision made by Adam and Eve, we have all fallen with them unfortunately into sinfulness. This is why we are imperfect in this lifetime. Sin is outside of God. He made it permissible for His ultimate glory. This is my take on it. I think we were all born imperfect for His sovereign and bigger plan.
Without a sense of Hell, moral reasoning is pointless. We can rape, murder, steal all we want without being criminally and eternally punished.
And finally, no, I don't think sin came through God. God gave Adam and Eve only one condition, yet with their hearts (deceiving as it was) they drew away from Him. This is the nature of man, imperfect, broken, and needing of a Savior. This is why God came into flesh and resurrected and defeated death. For our sake.
When you say "If God made man with the inclination to sin, doesn't that mean that sin actually came through God, and not man?", you are mixing up the Creator and His creation. The Creator gets credit for His creation, not what His creation is responsible for."
Let me give you this last scenario. Mark Zuckerberg, most prominently known Facebook co-founder. There was a suicide in the past few months shown on one of the platforms of Facebook Live, which was probably something Mark and the team made up for the GOOD of Facebook and its users. News flash globally to show the news of the suicide that happened on Facebook Live. I leave you with this: Is it under Mark's responsibility that the person attempted suicide? He is the creator of Facebook, so why don't you blame Him for this because He provided the platform and He allowed people to do as they wished. It would be irrational. Let me know what you think!
Thanks for the discussion! God bless :)
When I talk about God's plan being fixed under predestination, what I mean is that God, from His point of view, has already created everything. The end has been written just as surely as the beginning. This really strains the idea of free will, IMO, because if God has already determined that it would happen then man really doesn't choose. God chose for us when He made everything. He chose by making us the way we are. He chose by making the circumstances of our lives what they are. He chose by giving us the parents we have, country we live in, tragedies we suffer.
In the scenario where man has actual free will, then the change in plan wouldn't mean a mistake, rather, a changed attitude towards man based on man's decision. Like in Jonah, God changed His mind about destroying Nineveh. It wasn't because the plan was faulty, it was because God is Just and Merciful and He responds when people repent.
I think you unnecessarily tie sovereignty to foreknowledge, too. God being sovereign doesn't mean He's moving everything around like some grand chess master playing a game with Himself. Rather, it just means that God is the owner of everything, and He is the ultimate authority. God can intervene here on earth if He wants, but He chooses not to do so in a way that intervenes with free will.
It seems to me you want to have it both ways. On the one hand you say the people of Nineveh repented because it was God's will that drove them to it, yet Jesus says it was His will that Jerusalem repented, yet they did not. Is there conflict between the will of the Father and the will of the Son? I think not.
I'd like to hear what you think being made in the image of God means. From my perspective, I can't see how you can reconcile an inborn propensity to sin with the image of a totally good God. If God was totally good, and we were made in His image, where did the propensity to sin come from?
Where do our standard come from? I'd say the inner witness of the Holy Spirit, working through the reading of Scripture is a good start. The problem with that is that we all take different meaning from what we see there. This dialog is a good example. So, how does absolute truth fit in? Well, I believe there is absolute truth, I challenge the idea that man is somehow entitled to it, or that it is even something we are capable of attaining. In fact, I think this is at least partially what was behind the fall. The tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represents the ability to tell right from wrong. Man was never supposed to try to figure everything out on his own. Man was supposed to walk in the Garden with God and let Him be our guide. This is why the New Covenant is written on our hearts. I think this is one of the promises that has been partially fulfilled and when Jesus comes back the relationship will be perfectly repaired and we will have direct access to the Truth. Until then, I think it's best to be open about things that we can't know for sure.
You say you believe God wants humanity to glorify Him willingly, but how can this be true if God made the world knowing before hand that most people would never even hear about Him? It doesn't seem like He really wanted the Chinese, Indian, African, or Muslims to glorify Him if He just made them to live their entire lives in ignorance of Him only to suffer Eternal conscious torment for it.
Free will means that when we are presented with a choice, we really have a choice. It doesn't mean we are presented with every choice available. Some people are never presented Jesus as a choice so they can't choose. Did God want them to chose Jesus?
I totally disagree that you need Hell for moral reasoning. In fact, I find it counterproductive. If we go back to Jesus' favorite analogy of God as a Father, we are the children. Would a parent want their children only to obey because they are threatened with violence? Don't parents want their children to eventually learn what is right and wise and then choose to do those things on their own? Further, you complicate the issue of justice with the idea that people who God made predestined to never hear the gospel or accept Jesus, with the express purpose of torturing them forever.
I don't think I'm mixing up God and man with my understanding of inborn inclination to sin, either. If God made man with the inclination to sin, and He knew beforehand that man would sin, then God is the one who invents sin by creating an agent for sin where none existed before.
In your Zuckerberg example, the simple answer is that I don't blame Mark because he didn't know this was going to happen. He's not God. If your scenario said that Mark somehow was able to see the future and he still did everything the same, despite knowing the outcome, then I would say he is morally responsible.