Dear @ned and @officialfuzzy,
Let me start by saying I admire the shit out of both you. @ned, I spend hours on this platform every day. I've built a 4,400 Steemian community in Discord, and we're in the middle of building a radio show to support it. I love it here, and you were key in making that possible. I'm exceptionally grateful. Thank you for creating this place and thank you for continuing to move it forward.
Fuzzy, you're awesome. I wouldn't have MSP if I hadn't been talking with you earlier in my path here. Whaleshares was a giant influence in how I crafted the Minnow Support Project. There over a thousand minnows every day that benefit from the insights you shared with me. 1600 votes a day! That's what we're doing, and it wouldn't be possible without your tenure in the crypto and guild space which you used to help me understand how to build a community around Steemit.
I'm personally indebted to you both, and insanely grateful to you both. Hopefully that comes across in the next part of this.
Flagging in general
Here's how I've come to think about this after my own brief visit into flagging. There are basically two different types of flags: offensive and defensive. It's remarkably easy to blur the lines.
A defensive flag is one where you protect yourself, usually from disinformation, lies, trolls, or to generally punish someone for harming you.
An offensive flag is where you're trying to stir shit up. You have a point to make, and you're letting your SP do the talkin'.
One challenge though is that Flagging is a form of violence. You cause harm, both to rep which people work hard to attain and post rewards for authors and curators. So, a big flag harms the intended post author, but also take rewards away from many curators. If you took $1600 from me on the street I'd call that violence. If the government coerces me to pay under threat of violence I'll call that violence. When you take post rewards away on Steemit that's violence too.
I'm a pacifist, but some violence is justified. We'll discuss some of that in part two, but for now, if you flag on Steemit with a bunch of anarchist libertarian peace loving people you sure as hell better come with a good reason. Otherwise you're inviting the exact opposite of what you intend.
Unintended consequences of flagging
What I've learned is that both of these approaches have consequences on this platform, and more often than not it's not what you expect.
I'm left to speculate as to the reasons of the flagging because there wasn't anything left publicly spoken on the block, but Ned doesn't toss a lot of flags around, so I'm assuming he felt slighted. I listened to the talk on Fuzzy's show. Nothing sounded outrageous, but I'm betting there's beef here that goes back a while, and maybe I'm missing a piece to this.
But those flags Ned did a few things right... You took post rewards from people that upvoted them in good faith, and then like a million buzzing bees there were suddenly posts all over Steemit about the flags. Instead of looking like a potential victim of a long grudge you look like the aggressor, and so people are rallying around Fuzzy. In the end you're actually bringing increased support to him because now people that don't think your flag is righteous feel compelled to rally around him. The other thing that happened was that news and commentary of your intended-to-be private conversations on slack leaked by Fuzzy.
Fuzzy, I'm betting that's but a tiny trove of things that were said under the pretense that they were meant to be kept private. I can't quite tell if you're justified in releasing private conversation publicly, but I know you're riding a very tight line here between defending yourself and betraying trust.
Luckily though there isn't real damage that can't be undone, so I'd like to ask that you guys as leaders in this community to chart a different path forward from here.
It starts with deescalation
Ned. There's still time to remove the flags.
Fuzzy you haven't released anything damning. Please don't.
Can you please both agree to put the guns down?
How about a conversation?
You both know how to contact each other. Can you please pick up the phone/device/Discord and try to talk this shit out? We all go to the same moon you know!?! We're all trying to work on this platform. We're all trying to make this place better. It'll get there faster and be better if we can collectively work together on it. Honestly, we really need you guys to model the best behavior possible. It's ok to get angry, and sometimes this shit has to come out, but now that it has it's up to you to figure out how to navigate it.
You're both doing some pretty epic shit. I know there is some competition with BTS and that community, but they are on Steemit in a big way. The Steemit community benefits by having them here even with a little cooperticion.
Similarly look at what you're doing recently Fuzzy. You've made a shit ton and can build to your heart's content because Steemit whales are supporting your mission.
This relationship is mutually beneficial for you both and for the whole platform.
Again, please work it out. This whole community needs you to!
A word of caution about victimhood
I'm sure you both feel to some extent like the victim here. Please be careful with that too. Victims are often violent. They lash out when they shouldn't. I hope you guys can holster that feeling too, and hopefully you can both extend a good olive branch to the other.
A few months from now when we're all sitting on $10 steem we'll laugh at this, and the first round's on me, but this whole community is looking at you now. Please don't let us down.
Namaste,
Aggroed
Seriously, how could Ned possibly feel like the victim here? He attacked one of the most beneficial projects on the platform and can't even say a word of why. Would a drive by Gunner feel like a victim? This is like telling a rape victim she deserved it for wearing that dress.
Good point @jphenderson however do not come to a conclusion without knowing the facts. I posted about this issue on my latest blog post too and respect @officialfussy alot-infact he is a great steemian and should be thanked for all his supports (the same with @ned ) . Being in the middle and trying to resolve this issue prudently in a pluralistic way is far better than to lay blame on @ned or anyone. Let us hope to get to the underlying issue and thus better resolve this in a great way. Steemit will be better off if we work together as one great community , respect and support one another and most importantly, do not come to a premature judgement in any situation without knowing the facts!!!
@ned must be the face of steemian and he must show the proper behavior , he must be the last person flaging without say why and giving a CLEAR REASON why ! Please stop all to be so polite and ass licking .......... are you so scared your 20$ blog post can be flaged , or your .... idk 1000, 3000$ acount ? Is this money worth to sell your moral ?
No, I never ass lick no one as I am never afraid of anyone...I have my own deal going on here via my company in Germany and never depended on this platform- just having fun here and making new friends (never judge people on post dollars or account as you dont know them personally)- having said that, it will better serve this platform if we dont take sides and I have right for my own opinion without being afraid to have it. I respect your opinion and you should respect mine!!!
I know more facts than I've stated here. The flag was bullshit and this post is ass kissing bullshit. If there's a reason for the flag then he should explain it. Otherwise he should remove it. Blaming Fuzzy for being flagged for doing what Ned wouldn't is bullshit. Who is building this platform more than us? NOONE THAT'S WHO! That is the problem ned has with us is that we do more for the platform that he owns most of (so much for "decentralized") than anyone and he has no control over it. If I'm wrong prove it but the evidence says this.
I never said that you are wrong on your comment, I stated civility and have right for my comment without any referance to ass licking. Let us learn how to respond with prudency than allowing sentiments to take control. These guys will resolve this issue soon, that am sure.
I can understand your frustration. Thank you for airing it.
My first response is that there still in't any permanent harm that's been done by anyone here... yet. So, there are still several days to fix and help de-escalate the language and the conflict. If this isn't resolved by the time the post clears it'll be time for a different response, until then the point is to de-escalate everyone, and that includes you too.
Starting the repair with "Ned, you're a post rapist" isn't true, isn't going to de-escalate, and it won't help the platform. Yes, Ned flagged a post that includes whaletank, and that has the potential to harm all the people that upvoted the post and all the people that would have benefitted from that. That's real harm, and that's real damages. The post hasn't ended though so, this is still repairable. Let's work on that.
I'm pretty sure the flag wasn't specific to whaletank. It's not specific to Fuzzy wanting to build. I'm speculating, but I'm willing to risk saying that I think the flag was placed when Fuzzy decided to air some of his grievances with Ned publicly on air. Ned isn't dropping random flags elsewhere, and he's not continuing to flag, so in this case it appears Fuzzy was escalating off chain and Ned was responding with on chain escalation.
If the post ends with the flag in place then the story and the language is different. But that hasn't happened yet, and me and the vast majority of this platform hopes that won't happen. If that's your goal too then I'm asking you to please turn down the amplitude of the language of your response. I know you guys are frustrated, and the people in whaleshares have a right to feel that way, but healing starts when we tone down and talk it out rationally rather than escalate the language or the actions taken.
Please stay with me bud. I believe this can be resolved peacefully and that will truly help build this community.
Hmm if your poin is based on beyondbitcoin last talk than i disagree , Fuzzy have sayd this months ago . In public in Discord and in other places also . So no .... is not the reason .The people in Discord are upset because we all think Ned wants to ruin one of the most helpfull projects in steemit . We all know now the story about ....... from day one ! Best solution will be talk but sadly the onse side deside to keep silence ...........
@aggroed wise comment indeed which I indicated earlier. Thank you so much for your comment-I agree.
My only hope is as you indiated is to resolve this issue peacefully without anoying anyside. And it will be done if we dont take sides or acuse anyone.Anger can lead to unrepairable mistakes, so do not act when you are angry, rather cool down first , think prudently before taking action....I indicated the same in my last blog post. I am optimistic that this issue will be resolved peacefully.
De-escalation is the way to go. Between this and a couple of other happenings, it's been a bad vibe week for Steemit. Hopefully cooler heads prevail, a truce can be called, and whatever damage can be put behind to start looking towards the future of the platform.
Price and rewards go down the drama goes up, it is like they are connected. :)
When the pockets are full, that's when I smile the biggest.
Ugh, you can say that again. I've used up most of my posting energy this week addressing it.
Steemit is starting to feel like a lot of work this week...
It really has. Maybe something cool will happen and everyone will be excited again.
I would just like to say that Fuzzy pretty much had to say something since Ned attacked without explanation and has so far refused to say anything publicly or privately. I saw nothing malicious in what Fuzzy posted. When the CEO flags you and doesn't leave any explanation then you pretty much have to show that it's baseless. When someone attacks you and you are forced to defend yourself it isn't right to treat it as if they're both at fault. It would be really nice if Ned would open a dialog about the issue. Would have been even better if he had done so first but that's not what happened. Fuzzy is an incredibly reasonable guy and if there's a problem I'm sure he'd be willing to solve it.
Yeah, I think it's a super thin line, but I think Fuzzy's on the safe side of it.
I could flag this post, give no explanation and make the people who support your posts less likely to ever touch them again out of fear that their blogs would be my next target, but as my track record shows (for those who research it) I will not do that here. I prefer to be an adult and only escalate what is necessary to escalate. So busy building bro...and not just whaleshares. The whaleshares community has so many amazing things coming. Some of which reach much further than steemit. So the people who help me will likely know what its like to be a whale someday because I will do as I always have done...and lift them up instead of climbing on skulls to get to the top. Thanks for noticing this btw!
With that said..ill be honest. This sounds a bit harsh and judgemental toward me and unnecessarily so.
When was the last time you saw me downvote someone with no reason, no explanation? When have you seen me downvote anyone at all? I honestly dont know if i have without later going back and rescinding said vote. There may be one out there but they are i assure you a very rare incident.
In fact, instead of spending my energy downvoting ive given out over $100k of whaleshares and beyondbits to minnows who are now making solid returns in less than two months. and what i make...i build things with.
In this case...silence on my part looks like guilt and im guilty of absolutely nothing. But from reading your thoughts, it seems you feel maybe this is all based on some old fued? Allow me please to explain.
Your assessment is true -- I lost a great deal of respect for ned for real reasons that I have explained to people who wanted to know. But even with that, I largely keep my mouth shut about it and build.
This is on ned buddy. Please try to change your post to reflect this as it currently seems I was mutually at fault to all those who do not know what is going on. It also makes me out as attacking when Im actually forced to defend myself.
And just so you know...I have reached out to ned. Maybe I should not show you the proof because that would hurt neds privacy?
Perhaps rape victims should not go to the police to give evidence because it would hurt the aggressors privacy? Come on man..
Fuzzy, thank you for taking the time to respond. You're very thoughtful, and I can understand your frustration.
Since we first started talking you've mentioned that you and @Ned used to communicate, but now you don't as much. You've shared that with me privately, and I'm guessing it's come up psuedo privately in whaleshares either by you or the leaders in there. You have some strong opinions on what the root cause of that rift was. So, that's a few months of sharing strong opinions that I'm willing to bet have gotten back to Ned. He appears to have let that slide this entire time up until this last post. When I listened to the post the one thing that struck me was when you aired some of your frustrations in a publicly recorded session.
You and Ned probably have different perceptions of what happened back when this place started. You probably have different perceptions of events now. I'm betting that the flag on chain is because you chose to start escalating publicly off chain, and Ned is responding to that.
I don't think flagging was the right approach because as you note it causes harm and a rift in the community. It harms not only you, but the several hundred people that voted, and the whole community because it takes away funds that would have been used to do something productive. That said, the post hasn't closed and there is still time to undo this and unwind this conflict for the betterment of everyone.
I also have concerns over your choice to publicly talk about private conversation between you and Ned. Beyond Bitcoin may not be the best place to cure your relationship with Ned or vent your frustration with him. My point here is that both of you have played a role in helping this place grow tremendously and both of you are currently playing a role in potentially causing it harm.
Both of you and your respective communities have taken a hit from this, but it's nothing that can't be undone. You can acknowledge that your actions and your communication with this community have had some influence in Ned's decision to flag, Ned can remove the flag, and then we'll work to get you two get back on track to building this platform collectively.
That's the path. The alternative is a rift in which the Steemit community and the Whaleshares and or Bitshares community parts ways, which harms everyone involved. We're all heading to the same moon gents. Please try to deescalte the actions, the language, and sense of victimhood so that we can repair, build, grow, and moon.
I have great respect for you both. We're all looking up to you. Please don't let us down.
bravo, and extremely well-written. Basically, you've said what needed to be said.
Thanks Stella. I'm wishing for the best, and it starts with de-escalation. I hope it works out that way.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts @aggroed.
If I may be of any assistance with @Fuzzy and/or @ned please feel free to let me know.
I'd be more than happy to help with your radio show idea sometime.
Flagging is easy here, we don't have to give any reasons why we are flagging some content. So this is the reason people misuse it.
This is an interesting and cool discussion, I agree as you say. Thank you for sharing the beauty of these words
Well said! I hope everything settles down so we can focus on producing content and taking care of real problems that are threatening Steemit. Like that pesky scaling issue😏
Whale problems...Lets get back to growing Steemit you two.
This is the 1st post I came across so far which talks about resolving the issue rather than picking sides...thanks for bringing this up....as you suggested I'm sure a simple conversation is the best way to resolve this matter...as a minnow I can only hope at the end of the day peace prevails and the steemit community moves on without dwelling in the past.
You know what's funny? It seems that EOS and Steemit will be needing each other in the future. Steemit because of bottleneck performance and EOS for publicity and actual utility.
I bet my right testicle that Dan and Ned will be cooperating next year. Remember, the only thing that binds people for good is business. Nothing else.
offspring could be argued as the original binder...in a physical form. Business partners can divorce easily.
Very well articulated - couldn't have been better put in words. You truly speak on behalf of the entire community.
Everyone wants this feud to be resolved peacefully, and soon.
You can win battles, even go on to win the war - but its peace that wins the people.
Couldnt have said it better myself. Unfortunately i was the one attacked. Noone ever gave explanation...just pissed on my head and left.
However i still posted this this morning: https://steemit.com/beyondbitcoin/@officialfuzzy/a-lesson-reminder-in-miscommunication-and-the-importance-of-honesty
Thanks man and you should join us sometime on whaletank to see what next crypto projects on steem will grow :)
Feel free to send them our way if you know of great projects. We actually even give people an opportunity to win 1000sbd of beyondbits(vote tokens) for being the favorite one every week. :)
@aggroed indeed a point well made .I think it is because of such dedicated effort and post that steemit is going strong and better still evolving in a positive direction. A big thanks for Minnow project it helps our thoughts and expressions go further and reach out to more people.
Noble words @aggroed, mediation looks like it was needed. Well done, hopefully it does not fall on deaf ears.
Not exactly true scaredycat. I was attacked with a downvote instead of approached as an adult...what situation did that put me in? What do i gain from cowering like it was deserved other than make myself look like im "guilty" of something?
Fuzz, I have respect for what you both do. My comments were not directed at either party specificly, just that whoever or whatever message needs to be received from aggroeds words will be. I want to see you guys prosper, it's unfortunate the incident occurred at all. Hopefully things get sorted out.
Trust me i am not mad at you and u never have to worry about me downvoting content unless its childporn, snuff films and propaganda aimed at directly harming myself or others.
I appreciate your clarification though regardless :)
@aggroed I agree with your post which is very balanced, upped. This issue caused a lot of over reaction here leading me to make a post a about it on my blog post (feel free to see it ). What I dont want to see is over reaction in support of anyone without knowing the underlying cause. Any thing has a reason and I hope that this one will be resolved soon. Thanks for this post, and all your great projects here.
We all happy families have busts up now and again. Once everyone have let off steem, being a happy family is where we will end up again.
This is very Cool discussion i agree with u....
Gosh, I must have had my head in the sand just pumping out posts, as i knew nothing about this.
All I have to say to all of you whales, is listen
the cestial heavens are begging drama with that Aquarius and Leo energy going on and all those eclipses. Best you just do as my dog, and wag more and bark less. You know what i mean.
Life is easy, the people make the problems.
Right?
PS. Be Fearless ~ Choose LOVE!
(It's your choice!)
AMEN :)
Nice post
If they both really are leaders then they shouldn't be letting their personal drama spill into the workplace (steemit) in the first place.
Aggroed has a point. You're better than this. Just call each other up or meet up at a bar and talk things over. I'm sure you guys can find a compromise.
congratulations!
Man, i am not aware that there is something going on with the leaders that be in this platform. I agree with you @agroed that this situation has to be addressed asap before everything, who knows, will be come what may. Thanks for posting and made us steemians aware. This, in the end will ultimately affect all of us.
Finally, someone stepping up to mediate and cool the flames of an impending clash. Guys, we ain't kids anymore, we can talk things it out. People look at them as role models, someone who plays an essential part in this community. Man up and work it out!
It's easy to destroy, yet so hard to build. We all need each other. Definitely.
Hi everybody, as you can see I'm so young in here, but I know to everybody mentioned and the part playing in steemit. Also talked some few words with @aggroed some times.
Anyway, to be clear: El poder ciego corrompe corazones. which means: That the blind power breaks hearts.
I see that a lot of Steemians are broken for this situation!
Hope this could end soon thinking in a community that seem to be kind of FREE!
And this is not Freedom
Peace...V
what? hold on? did I miss a drama, battles of mega whales? Let's get the word out. People like drama, maybe this will bring more new users in?
Lol, kidding. @aggroed true peacemaker.
wow
Exceptional! Thank you!
Well said, we're all on the path to the same place and everyone here is better off together.
Your vote is important to us. For which we thank you. And keep voting.
@ahlawat
Well said
This deserves some attention. Upvoted and resteemed :]
Well said. Lets have a beer together and be over it! J
Thanks for posting this. Being kind to each other is so key. There is so much negativity in the world. Let's create a model for the globe. Even if it's digital!
wow......
And the negotiator has arrived!!
Well said @aggroed - you really are there to keep the peace :)
I read this very carfull and you text things i do not agree with :
,,Can you please both agree to put the guns down? "
Why you make this to look as a war ? Fuzzy didnt atack no one WE try to protect him , the people who apriciate what he have dan so far !
,,I'm sure you both feel to some extent like the victim here. "
Hmm and how Ned feel like a victim here ?
I just want to poin something , even i know you MUST be very polite because of your position in steemit you clear get a side in Discord .....
Sure. I'm furious. But that isn't going to help anyone. The first person to de-escalate is me for my own thoughts and actions. You're reading a distilled version of that. There's also no permanent harm that's been done. So there's time. If the post clears with the flag in place you'll see a different response.
Hmm ok respect to your answer , i see only one solution if this people talk and clear the topic ! You say harm is not been done - sadly is not true. This flag take curation and rewards from hundrets minnows ........... how this isnt harm ? But will follow your advise and will ceep calm until posts are payd , if ned chose to not respond with valid reason or remuve the flags what than ?
Post hasn't cleared. No harm done... yet. This can still be put right with everyone whole.
If that fails? Then we get more vocal stating we don't consent to the violent approach he's taken, but in a path meant to deescalate and re establish relations rather than an assault.
It is a matter of great sadness that we comment on your post but you do not comment on our post. So please try to comment from then on
This post has received a 60.00 % upvote from @lovejuice thanks to: @abh12345. They have officially sprayed their dank amps all over your post rewards. GOOD TIMES! Vote for Aggroed!
Aggroed, nice message, and I loved how you worded it, and the points you made. However, when anyone else on the platform has been flagged - some of them for no apparent reason the community message has basically been... "Take it like a man" or "Stake".
One post, of several (every day) on one day was flagged, I am not a fan of flags either, but none the less, the three act circus it has become is overkill. I was sympathetic at first.
Flags happen. It isn't the first or the last and others with high profile accounts have taken and received flags. It just isn't this big of a deal.
That was insanely well written. I hope they can de-escalate as you suggested. I wish Ned wasn't such a private person, he's almost like the wizard behind the curtain at this point. I want Ned to be more active with the platform and tell us whats on his mind.
No idea of what happened here but I really hope it can be resolved and everyone can move forward and peace out... I've found in life no one does anything unless they think they are right or justified in taking the action. Here's to grabbing that olive branch and moving on.
Thank You for posting this @aggroed.
As a fairly new member of this platform, I came and saw and loved everything I was seeing in regards to this community building into a place for me to set some roots and work toward the common goal of assisting to building a community we could call home. The flagging conflict has and leaves a negative impact to all the folks watching your actions (and yes you are all being watched).
Do I want to invest my time in a place where adults forget how to speak as humans to each other or just cash in what I have and keep looking?
I have suggested this site to several and had encouraged them to come over here and set up some roots and have a viable home base to help build the world we see that needs level headed adults to set a grounded foundation to grow from.
I understand this is all still in beta but a faulty foundation leads to collapse.
Thank You again for opening this discussion...
i hope everything gets sorted out :)
This is fantastic and I love its ingenuity
Upvoted & Followed
Well said. I don't take a side here but I hope this gets settled in a peaceful manner, soon Nirvana will be all ours.
Love your post just give you up vote and follow @aggroed
Wow.. Its great post @aggroed
Visit my blog @helmirenggrik
"If you took $1600 from me on the street I'd call that violence."
It totally depends on how the money is taken. I my wallet is pick pocketed I would call that theft. If I am threatened and compelled to hand it off I would call that a (armed)robbery. If they beat me up or stab or shoot me that's what I call violence.
"If the government coerces me to pay under threat of violence I'll call that violence."
That's either called extortion or robbery.
"When you take post rewards away on Steemit that's violence too."
I suppose by your standards when I get woken up by the alarm clock that's "violence" too?
You seem to apply a very loose/wide definition to the word "violence." If we're gonna use words that arbitrarily you damage the clarity of the message. I like to word my sentences in a manner that best conveys what I mean and that can't be interpreted as something I didn't intend.
Micro aggression also is being abused as a term these days.