RE: Political theory: general questions

[agmoore]

As always, a provocative post.

I always wondered why children aren't allowed to vote (via their parents).

I don't know about this one, @zuerich. In the U.S. this would result in weighting the electorate toward the less educated and those who are observant (religious.)

I think a more educated electorate would yield better results, and I don't want the influence of religion in my country getting any stronger.

On average, 24% of women with a bachelor degree (or higher) have 3 or more children. More than 37% of those without a degree have 3 or more children.

Also, on average the religious (attend services once a week or more) have an average of approximately 2.2 children and those who don't attend any services have less than 1.5.

On the other side one could ask if 95-year old people should be allowed to vote? Statistically they are scarcely affected by political decisions

As a 78-year-old (next week will be my birthday), I take exception to this :)) I don't know anyone who isn't affected by political decisions. Plus, as I get older, I think even more about consequences to posterity. A young person has a narrow focus, one centered on individual prosperity. As an older person, I have a wider perspective. It's not about me so much, but about the future for everyone, especially my family.

Comments

[zuerich]

Dear @agmoore,

thank you for your comment which I much appreciate.

In the U.S. this would result in weighting the electorate toward the less educated and those who are observant (religious.)
I think a more educated electorate would yield better results, and I don't want the influence of religion in my country getting any stronger.

• "would yield better results" - who defines "better"?
• I argue that equal voting rights would imply that children have the right to vote. This is a moral and juridical argument, not a utilitarian one. In my opinion it's not relevant if and how the election results would change by this change in the electoral law. Sure, it would shuffle politics quite a bit. Perhaps Democrats would be forced to get more rational concerning "family policy" (what an ugly term).
• Do people who are more "educated" vote better, or are some of them educated fools? How much value does a university degree have? Some of those educated people may not be religious in the traditional sense, but they have their own beliefs (David Foster Wallace would say: There is no such thing as not worshiping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship.). Some of those educated people were utterly incapable of objecting against trans-gender surgery in minors or against a male boxer (Imane Khelif) beating up a female boxer in the Olympics. Moral compass lacking?
• When I was at university I encountered a lot of self-absorbed, complacent young people who lacked "common sense" and who haven't worked a single day in their life (though being already 25). That didn't stop them from knowing everything better and talking disparagingly about non-academics (who, by the way, pay for / subsidize the university and these young people's prolonged adolescence). Do such people really vote better? I'd prefer people who have both feet on the ground.
• The western world (including the US) is in a deep demograpic crisis. If religious (Christian) people have on average significantly more children, one could argue that the US needs more of those people.

[roleerob]

Excellent points, @zuerich.

"Do people who are more "educated" vote better, or are some of them educated fools?"

"There is no such thing as not worshiping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship."

That these people have no system of belief simply does not stand up to close scrutiny. Of course they do, whether openly and honestly acknowledged or not.

---

I am highly educated, as these people view the word. And as an engineer. As such, intentionally avoiding ALL of the philosophical types of courses which are intentionally designed to subvert the minds of the young people passing through them.

[roleerob]

As we are close enough in age and both American, @agmoore, I can agree with this:

"As an older person, I have a wider perspective. It's not about me so much, but about the future for everyone, especially my family."

[emphasis added mine]

Reading through your response, however, this might be confusing to some, as you seem to imply a significant part, of our country's challenges, is that we have too many children?

"I think a more educated electorate would yield better results, and I don't want the influence of religion in my country getting any stronger."

Or is it we just have too many of certain types of children?

[agmoore]

Hello @roleerob,

Welcome to the septuagenarian club.
Please read my comment to @zuerich in which I explain more completely my views.

Edit: Please note. I love children. I am one of six and I had two of my own. My comment was not about the number of children, but about giving families with more children a weighted vote. It's about voting, not demographics. By all means, have more children. We should treasure the children in our society. They are the future.

[roleerob]

Okay, thank you for your response, @agmoore. I did read your entire initial response and my quotes are what stood out to me. Presented to you in the form of a question, as well as the potential for misunderstanding. You have clarified now what you were intending to say.

I have also now read your 2nd response to Zuerich. As you are expanding on your view of the importance of education, I would welcome hearing how you think that is going with our younger generations?

[agmoore]

Hi, @roleerob,

Not well. The performance is profoundly uneven across the country. Correlation with wealth/race is quite high. That is true, for example, in my neck of the woods. School district lines are strictly enforced. In my old neighborhood there was actually a street that separated school districts. One side of the street belonged to a nationally recognized district. The other side belonged to a distressed district. Home values followed that school district line.

Edit:
I can't resist adding to this. If we want to fix our education system in the U. S. we can do a few things.

1. Get rid of schools of education. They teach nothing. When I briefly became a teacher (career change), I had to take the national qualifying test. It had three parts. One was on education, as taught in the schools of education. That test was so simple, so filled with common sense responses, that it was tragic. Teachers should be schooled in academic areas. They should be the smartest, not just people who want summers off.

2. Make teachers accountable to outcome. Pay and even job security should be linked to the success of the students. Not until that happens will teachers actually teach.

3. Throwing money at the problem won't help, unless that money buys talent. Talent in the classroom means getting results.

4. I don't think every child should be mainstreamed. If a child cannot or will not cooperate in class, there should be special schools, as there used to be. A teacher cannot teach if he/she is constantly taking up instruction time with discipline issues.

OK. I got that off my chest :))

[roleerob]

Yes, @agmoore.

"Not well."

We agree on that. And this is hardly new. We were both around, when Reagan's "National Commission on Excellence in Education" issued their final report in 1983. With this damning summation:

"If an unfriendly foreign power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war."

Could their judgment have been stated any more clearly? Surely, then, Congress "got right on it." Right? Of course they did. Leading John Taylor Gatto, New York's Teacher of the Year, to write his well known book, "Dumbing Us Down ," in 2002.

---

I could go on, but I'll refrain.

"Correlation with wealth/race is quite high."

We do not agree on this, if in any way, as seems self-evident, you are making a case the sorry state of our education system is in any way based upon the fact there is still not enough money being spent. I say that from my own experience base of sitting on a private school board for six years, with far less $$ / student (~75% less, at that time) spent than the published figures for any student in the public education system.

In whose hands do you believe the primary responsibility for the education of our children rests? Their parents? Or the State?