This morning, I ended up being part of a somewhat odd discussion, as part of a web group I belong to.
Japanese maple in fall...
Some off the cuff comments about executive pay in the US led to a lengthy philosophical discussion after someone pointed out that the CEO of (an unnamed company) was being paid US $28 million a year.
As expected, two "camps" quickly developed, one being all in favor of people being free to make "however much they can," regardless of consequences... the other perspective revolving around whether it is "right" and "just" for any one person to be compensated that much, especially in a world filled with homelessness and starvation.
As is typical of such debates, those arguing on the "freedom" side of the equation repeatedly stressed that whether you "need" $28 million or not has nothing to do with anything... you have the right to make it.
On the opposite side of the coin, the reasonings and rationalizations were all over the map, ranging from ethics to social justice.
Need vs Want vs Greed
I suppose I fall on the more "moderate" side of the debate-- in the sense that I believe "needs" vs. "wants" IS an important factor, in terms of how your moral and ethical compass is aligned in life.
First snow on the Gazebo at our local park
Of course, "need" can be a pretty nebulous thing... and it takes a certain amount of self-awareness to be able to determine where your need ends and wants begin, in the first place.
We need to eat, and maybe we need to have shelter, and maybe we need to have transportation, but we probably don't need a 60-foot luxury yacht, unless we're planning to start a ferry service or something.
For me the line is fairly easy to draw... metaphorically speaking, as soon as something is more about philosophically feeding my ego than functionally feeding my stomach, it becomes open season for debate.
There's a somewhat famous study carried out at Princeton University in 2010-- it looked at the relationship between money and happiness and determined that once someone is making about $75,000 a year, they don't report additional life satisfaction as income increases further.
It's probably a little bit higher today, since seven years have passed since then.
The Exercise
So what would you do, if your income was suddenly $28 million a year?
I know a lot of people who would go on an insane spending spree through any number of luxury goods and services... but what do you actually have, when you have or do those things?
My personal truth is that I probably wouldn't do a whole lot of stuff differently.
Beech leaves in fall
We already own our house outright. Sure, we would be assured our bills were always paid on time, and we could finally afford really good health insurance. Sure, we'd have newer more reliable cars... but I've never had any desire to own a Rolls Royce or a Ferrari. We'd probably travel more and be able to help our adult kids if they hit rough patches.
We might buy a place in a warmer location and spend winters there, and spend summers where we currently live. Might hire someone to mow the lawn in summer because-- quite frankly-- I'm tired of mowing.
I'd probably write and work with my art full time... simply because I wanted to, not because I depended on it for income. That would be nice.
Realistically speaking, that probably leaves $27,800,000 a year which (after taxes) I would plow into some kind educational foundation dedicated to support those who sincerely wanted to either pursue an education towards the greater betterment of the planet, or to give grants to those working directly towards creating a better world-- more freedom, less hunger, less disease, less poverty.
Now before anyone gets all fired up, I'm merely saying that's what I would do... not that it's what people "should" do. Your choices are your choices... and so the story you tell is uniquely yours.
The Greed Factor... and Mental Illness
I want to touch on greed, for a moment... as I feel it applies to accumulating wealth.
Japanese maple leaf
"Accumulating" is an interesting beast, but consider the following, for a moment:
When someone collects a house full of old newspapers, or 50,000 record albums, or a yard full of wheelbarrows, we declare them "hoarders" and the world more or less agrees that they have a mental illness and need psychiatric help so they can become more balanced. We try to find a happy medium by explaining to them that nobody NEEDS 700 wheelbarrows.
On the other hand, when someone relentlessly "hoards" money and assets we somehow declare something that's very close to the same behavior "success" and hold it up as an example for others to emulate.
From where I am sitting, there is something slightly disturbing about that dichotomy. Somehow it's OK-- and even encouraged-- to hoard money, but it's not OK to hoard old comic books?
Economic Reality and Myths About Extreme Wealth
One more thing before I bring this to a close... There's a school of thought that people should be left alone in their efforts to become extremely rich, because the extremely rich are-- ultimately-- the "job creators" that keep the economic machine rolling.
Final few fall leaves
Having lived among "the extremely rich" for part of my life, that argument has limited economic viability in the real world... looks nice "in theory," though.
For the most part, the very wealthy don't go out and "start projects" because they are extremely rich... they go out and start projects because there is DEMAND... people are buying stuff. And if people don't have any money to buy stuff, there aren't going to be very many new jobs... because really rich people didn't get really rich by making a bunch of stuff people aren't buying.
That's grossly oversimplified, but ultimately "demand" is the leading indicator, not "job creation."
I don't say that so much as a proponent of a higher minimum wage as I say it as a simple reality... it's the people in the lower 95%-- buying flat screen TVs, fancy sneakers and dinners out-- who oil the gears that keep super rich people their mansions.
I mention this because it's a popular argument of fiscal conservatives to say that we should give the uber wealthy lots of breaks and freedoms... so they'll "create jobs." Alas, they don't create anything unless they have a good reason to...
How about YOU? What would YOU be doing if you were suddenly making $28 million a year? Spend? Invest? Do something philanthropic or altruistic? Leave a comment-- share your experiences-- be part of the conversation!
(As usual, all text and images by the author, unless otherwise credited. This is original content, created expressly for Steemit)
Created at 171105 22:02 PDT
Tell me, is it a "need" or a "want" (or greed) to spend 10 years of your life practicing 12 hours a day to become a guitar virtuoso (or a world class ballet dancer, or a master painter, etc. etc.)?
With my limited understanding, it is only coercive force and the curtailing of competition that I hold foul.
So probably some of the best in business and art and invention and innovation.....that give us things that we admire(art), and appreciate(tech), and need(jobs) often have more broken lives than those that receive the benefits of their labors(the average joes and middle class stiffs).
An example that pops in my mind is Robin Williams or Kurt Kobain(Sp?).
Their drive and passion is sometimes....maybe always, a type of mental ilness that doesn't allow them to be content. And so they strive and produce great things!
idk interesting to think about!
Good question @onceuponatime, and sometimes it becomes a sticky area... on this, I can only speak to my personal philosophical leanings... which would make me ask "why?"
If I practice playing the guitar because I truly care about being the very best about playing the guitar and being really good at that, it seems it comes from an authentic place. If I'm doing it obsessively and forgetting to shower and pay my bills and mow my lawn and my obsession impinges on the freedoms of those around me... then maybe there's a problem. Similarly, if I am playing the guitar 10 hours a day not because I care about music, but because "rock stars are rich" then I once again bump my head against "misplaced motivation."
I sometimes think about this in a more "real world" context... if I have a choice between a surgeon who has dedicated his life to neurosurgery and healing people, and someone who became a surgeon because "surgeons make lots of money," I am always going to choose the doctor whose primary motivation is healing.
Again, this is just a personal thing... I suppose what I hold foul is the practice of getting ahead more by tearing DOWN your competition than by showing your own excellence. I recognize such behavior as being part of life, but that doesn't mean I sanction it, and I'm likely to call out anyone who engages in it.
Oh oh! When I first heard about cryptocurrency I forgot to shower and pay my bills and mow my lawn!!! :-)
You're a funny guy! I say that, of course, knowing that I have been wearing the same pajamas since I first found Steemit... I don't even remember where the shower IS.
By the way, how's the whole Greek legal/paperwork thing coming? Any news or progress?
I have rented out the house I bought in Greece to get my residency permit (what do I need 4 bedrooms for?) and have rented a small but exquisite little apartment with a panoramic view overlooking the Gulf of Corinth for myself. The spread, plus a few curation steem, gives me enough to live on.
Wow! That is very cool. To live in the meditaranian seems like a pretty good life.
Are these arrangments... in cost as well as visas.... is it just possible because of Greece's economic problems of last 6 years?
Or not really, always part of your plan... not much has changed because of Greeces troubles?
Thx
What happened in Greece will happen in the rest of the world. The fiat systems are doomed.
Might as well grab the bull by the horns here as wait for it to come charging at me in my old haunts.
But yes, probably because of the crisis the Greek government offers a residency permit to anyone who invests in the purchase of a home above a certain minimum. That minimum paid for for a much larger house than I need for just myself, so I rented it out and leased a much smaller apartment to live in.
Nice! Glad the economics worked out... that has to offer a certain sense of freedom and peace of mind.
I'd create world class accommodations with a focus on recreation and leisure with a strong emphasis in utilizing permaculture principles and practices. Creating an incubator of sorts to support life awesomeness as much as possible. Creating a sort of communal living compound - sharing in the best of Life
enjoyed the exercise here :)
Sounds like a good plan... especially like the idea of supporting permaculture.
cheers @denmarkguy
Permaculture is indeed incredible stuff!
odd thing.
I never worked for a poor man.
Funny thing..they don't own businesses and don't hire many people.
Fair' nuff.
On the few occasions I did work for companies, I was always better compensated in smaller organizations than big ones.
problem with small companies is like the problem with small fishes.
Big ones gobble them up.
Indeed.
Long Live the Corporatocracy!
Not "ALWAYS".... and just because that tends to happen doesn't mean that it is best.
I guess that I know your statement @everittdmickey has truth.... but so does: "cancer kills 5million people a year and has for last 50 years..." doesn't mean that we don't search for a cure.
So, my question to your statement is...
Do you see the gobbling up as a problem, that could have a solution?
Or are you saying it's a fact and nothing can change it?
I see it as a BIG problem.
It dramatically reduces diversity.
It (isn't everything) is due to government tax policy.
Tax policy which is written by the rich 'elite' that wish to keep their rich situation....so they lobby for tax codes that favor the haves, and unfairly disadvantages the have lesses.
yup...That's what I said. That's why most small businesses are gobbled up by the big boys..
That's a crazy amount to make a year! I wouldn't know what to do with all of that money. You can buy a big ass house, hire a gardener and maid to keep it all clean and tidy, but then what? I think I wouldn't even do that. I would buy a nice house close to nature and with a swimming pool to keep myself healthy. But I wouldn't want it too big. I'd rather go on vacations. Then I'd make sure I'd have a saving acount big enough to keep me supported for the rest of my life and the rest would probably go to vacations and charity.
Honestly, just a few million one time would give you financial freedom for the rest of your life if you live in a regular house. Isn't that enough?
For me, what money mostly buys is more security (knowing I don't have to worry if something "bad" happens) and the ability to be left alone.
For the most part, I'd want to focus the rest of my efforts on teaching people how to make their lives better... not "handouts" but teaching the skills that make handouts unnecessary.
Like taking on 'interns'/journeyman that work for you, but benefit by the direct interaction and tutalage. That would be cool. I wish the whole mentorship thing was done more these days... in truth it would negate the need for many college degrees and thus keep those 'kids' out of heavy student loan debts.
I think we've gone overboard on "cookie cutter education," and value that all-important college degree far about someone who has an actual skill and trade to offer. Which I think would serve them much better, in the long term.
Right. I think that is what I was saying! Thank you
That is such a good way of putting it and I completely agree with you on that front. I also think your idea of teaching people to better care for themselves is great. Handouts don't work and will postpone some problems. Knowledge is much better :-)
Why did your ancestors move out of their cave? Wasn't that enough?
Because a cave is a crappy place to live. But so is a BIG house. Which is why, now, after 40-50 years of big houses, the small house and tiny house movements are growing.
Sure, that's a good point. However, not having loads of money does not equal no progression. I guess none of us would mind getting that much each year, but deciding what to do with it might get a bit tough, other than donating it to charity/science/whatever you care about :-)
I agree that it is enough. But the temptation is two fold....that its not enough, AND that if you don't accumulate more, it won't be enough in the future.
Yeah, I guess that very much depends on how you spend it aswell. If you buy a big ass house that requires a lot monthly to maintain, you'll get yourself stuck into having to earn a lot each month. If you get used to an expensive lifestyle, you'll not quickly settle for less.
Very interesting read and I'm in your camp. I also think that the NEED versus WANTS is a topic that is in the center of the debate; for all the arguments you already mentioned. And yes, the rich will not start projects because they simply like it; Some do, but most of them don't. When the rich get richer, I don't see they will launch more projects to re-distribute their money with those who really need it.
This morning I was reading in our financial news, many Dutch millionaires are under foreign tax regime because of the high taxes in Netherlands and those rich were stating: "Give us more influence in what will be done with our tax money, and we come back to Netherlands". That I just find a stupid wish and it would be really stupid for our society to even think about this, or debate this. It only give the rich more power over the rest of the society.
I recently read a great article about basic income, an instrument that could give everybody the freedom to do whatever he or she wants. This article was in Dutch language and I translated it and posted today. Very interesting and detailed arguments why we should provide everybody with a basic income without any rules that tells the individual to work or something.
If I would earn 28M$/year: Sure I would use some of the 28M$ on myself, but lets say that would not be more than 50k-500k per year. That is already such an amount of money, I probably would not know how to spend that.
Probably a large part of the 28M$ I will use to support projects on basic income, to get such system further tested and determine through practical implementations if and how to move forward with such instrument.
Thanks for the detailed response!
I have never really asked more than a "comfortable" life... I don't really see or understand the point of anything more than that.
I do like the idea of using such large sums to explore further how we can create Universal Basic Income, which I think will become very necessary in the future, as more and more people will find their jobs displaced with automation... and no new jobs opening up to take their place. I'll go check out your article/post as it is a topic that is very interesting to me, and I am watching several cryptocurrency initiatives that are trying to establish basic income.
Agree, a comfortable life is all I need as well and that doesn't cost millions a year :)
Basic Income: fully agree, we need some kind of instrument like that since in a couple of decades AI and Robotica will for sure handle the tasks of most of our jobs. At the same time, we need to make sure the ownership of the IPR of AI and Robotica is in the hands of all of us, instead of a couple of corporates.
Crypto based basic income: Someone pointed me to GrantCoin, but although their story sounds interesting, the amount the actually payout seems to be around 1$ per participant per month, which is for people in the western world nothing. Wondering if they are able to increase this with a factor of 1.000.
Musiccoin also propagates basic income, but they take it from a music perspective. Before a listener needed to pay for a streamed play of a track (pay-per-play), but they made it free for the listener and part of the mined coins are now flowing towards paying the musicians owning the tracks. Still the pay-per-play is in effect, ie a track that is played 10 times more than another gets paid 10 times more then the other.
Yes, I got involved with the GrantCoin idea early on-- I guess they now have renamed it "Manna" and are redesigning how they do things. Not sure what will come of it... for the moment, the contributions are extremely low (by western standards), but it always seemed unclear how they proposed to fund the project. I think VivaCoin is pursuing a somewhat similar ideal.
VivaCoin: indeed, I looked into before they went ICO, but also with their idea, wondering how the finance it. I think they may dream the coins gets some value by itself, through trading and investing. But I dont think that is a sustainable model.
Sadly, a lot of these projects have beautiful ideals, but we end up with the more functional "how does this sustain itself?" and most of the time nobody has any idea. You can't just have "output," you have to have input, as well... something to make it attractive enough to investors that they will pump assets into it. Something for something, not something for nothing.
I agree with you!
Hello @denmarkguy!
I loved the bit about hoarding wheelbarrows, you are right though- "hoarding money" is a completely different story. I also knew about the study you cited; where after a certain point, money doesn't make you happier.
If I was making 28 million a year, I would first buy a house, pay off student loans, and take other steps toward making myself financially stable. Then, I would help out my family, and close friends. Then I would spend some time researching causes that I could help fund. Maybe buy myself a couple of cool gadgets, and maybe one item that would be considered "left field".
Filling a demand huh... If I see it that way, then I can't really say it's unfair that there are people who are wealthy and those who aren't- BUT! Everyone who does amass a good amount of wealth should try to help others and causes that they understand and would want to back.
As always, your post leaves us with questions for ourselves.
Mahalo,
@shello
Thanks for the comment @shello!
I think part of the problem might be-- at least here in the USA-- that we don't value the "collective good" very highly. Everything here is about supporting "the individual," as a result of which altruistic endeavors are not values do much. If social status was awarded based on how much philanthropy someone could show they had done, I'd bet far more executives would get involved in do-good projects, rather than buying luxury yachts.
Very true, I can see the wisdom behind your words! I feel like technology plays a big role in this as well focusing more towards the individual. We have apps and services aimed at producing "custom goods" for customers, and everyone gets pulled into a me me me mentality.
I can't help but feel that part of this behavior comes from the fear of failing and be let down by peers. Although it is good to be self-empowering, a person should aim not just to improve themselves, but those around them as well.
Yachts aren't gonna drive themselves~☆
The Greed factor you mentioned is very interesting. My neighbors mother is a big time hoarder of "resellable" stuff. She started because his dad left her, and the stuff is her income security ....or it started out that way. But she got employment that now covers all her bills and then some, but still constantly accumulates stuff(used clothes, used appliances, yardsale finds, curbside finds,etc.)
However, she rarely has a sale of her own. When she does, she usually has to take time off from paid work, and rarely makes $100 per sale, for twice the labor of hourly work.
So....I find this fascinating to have her compared to the 'millionaire hoarder of cash'. But why not. Rich people are often painted as being workaholics....ignoring their kids and family. Making better decisions for their business than theirselves. That sounds like illness to me!
I started a business many years ago, and it ended up being moderately successful after a few years-- earned me and my family a decent living.
I was constantly being hit up by people who wanted me to expand and franchise and what have you, and they saw me as a complete "failure" and "slacker" because I wasn't all over that... well, I was making a good living from a reasonable amount of work. They kept selling me on the idea that I would be able to "afford" a mansion, and a luxury yacht and so on... without even ONCE pausing to ask what I might be interested in achieving/having.
You are a lot wiser than most!
I am sure you chose best to stick with what worked for you.
I think if I woke up one day earning that much, I would ask myself if it was worth it. Most people earning that much work a lot more hours than your average Joe and I'm not sure the money would be worth the missed time with my family.
If I had the money to spend for some reason, I would buy a homestead and take it from there.
Mostly, for me it would mean buying some separation between myself and the prospect of ending up destitute when the next disaster strikes.
Stick with that mindset....I think it is best!
Having and maintaining such a large income could be as much a mental ilness as a poor hoarder. As you said....which is more important?Income or Family? Once you pass the $100K mark. Or the $65K mark.
If I was making that kind of money I would invest it so that I had a steady income from which I could continue to draw on to help others. As it stands now, I have enough for myself and don't need any more. As you stated, more money does not make people happier. And yea... I like the analogy of hoarding money to hoarding anything else. It's an illness.
Nothing wrong with working hard and doing your best... striving for excellence. But most people don't know what "enough" looks like... they just want "more." And they keep filling the "empty spaces" inside themselves with "stuff" and then feeling dissatisfied when the stuff doesn't fill them.
Basic investment to secure income in perpetuity is definitely a good plan.
I generally deny offers from banks' financial planners thinking that I could probably teach them a thing or 2 about money. When growing up poor, one usually learns how to stretch a dollar. There are a few popular books on living frugally and I could probably have written them... nothing I didn't already know in any I read.
Most of my life people considered me a cheapskate, yet those same people are still chasing the almighty dollar. I'm chasing quality of life! I worked hard and now its time to work on relationships and enjoy the fruits of my labours.
If I were all of a sudden making $28 Million per year, I would invest heavily in cryptocurrencies and contribute to the cause (trading and working with cryptos is my passion BTW). However, this does make a good case for greed vs. need because the CEO doe snot NEED $28 Million, but some would not consider it greed- especially if he pays his employees well.
Thanks for sharing!
Indeed, some would not consider it greed... and cases actually exist-- when Gravity Payments CEO Dan Price decided to pay everyone at his company a base salary of $70,000, he did cut his own salary to a fraction of what it was before to fund the experiment... so the income was basically redistributed.
I think I would just give away to all who need, buy my children houses send kids to university and I can carrry on but I have everything I need, much nicer giving than receiving.
It's a nice idea, although when you give people too many things they don't always appreciate the value of them.
Sounds good...but history would teach, if you freely give education and houses to your kids they will not appreciate or care for these investments. It would be a tough situation....they would look at you with incredulity and maybe even jealousy if you offered to only pay 1/4th and loan them the rest....if they knew you had 20million dollars.
Just do what feels right. Freedom can't be paid, same as health.
What if I am feeling greedy or perverted that day? Feelings aren't always the best guide. Some feelings need to be moderated, banished or modified. imo
Feelings tend to be very fleeting, so they are not always the wisest decision makers.
You are the type of person that deserves to be making that type of money because you have morals. I love the part about not changing much if you were making that much. Says a lot about your character. Following you now!
I appreciate the kind words... and yes, I'd like to think I could effectuate some positive changes, if I actually were to make that much.
Interesting post and question. I would invest in clean energy technologies, self driving electric vehicles, vertical farming and of course more crypto. Plus I would like to give friends and family free solar panels and other things.
I'd like to develop a self contained 'farm' like unit run by computer control and robots that you could deliver on a truck. An advanced greenhouse of sorts that produced produce without much human intervention.
Of course if I actually had that much money who knows what I would actually do, when it comes down to doing something it is usually more difficult than you think.
Excellent food for thought, as always.
I've been meaning to ask - what editor do you write your posts with? I haven't found a good one for HTML, but markdown makes it so hard to put the pics where you want them...
Oh man where do I began? To start I'd go over all my world changing ideas to see which one I'd want to tackle first. I want to create ways for people to pursue the things they want to and not just because they have to pay bills. Idk what that looks like as a project on a practical level . I believe this would free people from stress and worry a bunch.
I don't think I would feel comfortable with myself not doing something to help people with all my money. We have a responsibility to use our wealth for the betterment of our fellow man. I hate hearing people talk about how giving people things is bad. The people that say giving things away for free are the same people who are being given oxygen to breathe. For free.
Hopefully I can be in the position to help people in this way.
And I know for a FACT that you did not read this post in 23 seconds!
Wow, you make such great argument. It is great for Steemit. I will follow you forever to learn this intelligence. Great!
j/k
But yeah..I have been seeing these statements a lot. They find a good statement....then copy and paste it everywhere to get an upvote. Sad.
Funny! I think I saw that exact comment earlier this morning. About 13 times.