Flagging? No problem there... until... krnel flags you for no real reason just to prove a point... then OMFG krnel is such an asshole!!! He complains about flagging then flags people, what a hypocrite !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So... why didn't you care before?
The concentration of power for flagging started because of the concentration of power for regular upvotes. The concentration of power for upvotes was an issue since day #1, but everyone pretty much accepted it. You gained a following, got support, and got rewarded. If you had no whale support, you got nothing pretty much. Oh well, we all just kept trucking along that flawed design because of a "free market" erroneous flawed reasoning.
Those that had whale support, were disliked by some in the community for getting said support, and the flagging for rewards was welcomed against them. Woo0ot, bring on the flags for rewards, it's Tony-the-tiger GREEEEEEEAT!!!!!!!!!
What happened when the whale support left through "no-whale" votes, giving the power back to the regular users... more or less? Some people still got flagged for rewards even though they were on the same level as others with no one getting whale votes... yet... that was fine and dandy for many people... because they weren't getting hit by abusive power playing flaggers. But then I start playing the flag game... and I'm not even a power player. But they got upset now that they were being hit with a measly little flag from me. When other people were getting all their rewards removed, did they care? No.... LOL. But lose a few cents from krnel, and that's a big issue for them.
Did any of the people complaining now about lil 'ol me, krnel, flagging with such small power, care when it was others being flagged and harassed by large power playing abusers? No. @seablue and others are affected, but hey, the concentration of power is great!!! No problems here unless they are affected, like they were when I targeted them.
It seems the only way for people to understand the issue in the Steemit system is for it to directly affect them and then they start talking about it. Until I was affected by the concentration of power to flag, I didn't bother with the concentration of power to vote. But then I was affected, and I learned that the reason some people were fallaciously, irrationally and inconsistently flagging certain users for rewards was because of the underlying concentration of power to upvote int he first place. So I targeted the whole Steemit system and the concentration of power as the root cause of the Steemit woes.
But, unless it affected others, they didn't really seem to care to understand the problem... Some want to actively ignore the problems of the concentration of power, either in votes or flags, because I benefited from it like others, or now I started to flag to prove the problem with the flag... Just rotate around those things I did/do, and you can simply ignore the reality of the problem and keep pointing fingers at me instead! Wonderful idea!
So lets just keep ignoring the issue because I didn't talk about it before the flagging issue showed it's ugly head, right? Because I benefited from the concentration of power before in upvotes, now apparently I can't show the demonstrable reality of the flawed concentration of power and how it manifests to create the disempowerment, disillusionment and disenfranchisement of user on Steemit.com... LOL. That's some real "logic" used by my opponents to try to silence my objections to the failures of Steemit. Nice try...
So everyone, just flag those who make the most on their posts, and show the platform how "great" flagging is.
Flagging is FUN now!
Don't you know?
Do what the cool guy bernie does, he leads the way to Steemit's ultimate success!
After all, flagging is such a "wise" tool to promote development of a social networking community!!!!!!!!! Right? Lets show the world how great flagging is when used willy nilly by power players to flag people they don't like or posts that make more rewards than others!!!!! AWESOME!!!!!!!
Downvotes, not flags.
Steem is set up to allow anyone with STEEM Power to influence a pending payout. Pending payout amounts are not cumulative and can fluctuate until the time of the actual payout.
Complaining is one thing, proposing a solution to a perceived problem is more productive though. Do you have some idea of what a solution to your downvote complaints would look like?
The fact that most users interact with the SteemIt UI seems to escape... ;) I don't disagree, but trying to rename something when the UI looks like this...
It's a good point, and the Steemit UI needs to be brought back to reality. I think if Steem users were educated on what a "flag" actually is, then this overdue pull request to the Steemit code might have a higher chance of being approved.
Reducing concentration of upvotes/flagging power... That's the solution.
Exactly!
I've received downvotes I've disagree with in the past but not on the scale @krnel has. The most interesting thing I've read on the subject is this post which was resteemed by @dantheman.
https://steemit.com/steem/@bitcoindoom/why-down-votes-and-flags-are-an-unavoidable-consequence-of-game-theory
Those who have more risk more. When large stake holders downvote their downvote are remarked and make huge waves in the community even when nobody dares to address them. Those downvoters risk losing support if the community doesn't agree with their downvotes. This is all detailed in the post. I don't know if downvotes are truly a necessity. It's something to keep in mind though.
Excerpt
That's what's being done most likely in the next hard fork. So complaining, knowing about that change, doesn't do much.
That change is welcomed but it wouldn't be enough to counteract a single flagging whale bully. Better than nothing of course, linear curve for rewards is asked since long time from what I know.
And how do you change how it works without compromising the value of SP, and therefore the market value of STEEM, on which the economics of Steem stand upon?
Allowing the community to vote against a player who is behaving badly regardless of how much SP they have is a simple solution. The votes could have different levels of consequences depending on how many people vote against them and the level of the vote. One other option that I really like is requiring them to have a certain level of reputation and posts before they have any significant power towards upvotes or downvotes. A person with a rep under 70 would not have very much influence when they flag or downvote someone. Checks and balances need to be in place so the community can help to correct those that are detrimental to the prosperity of steemit as a community and the value of the tokens.
I can't answer you cause I am not economist nor programmer. I am a guy using websites, reading and writing. So if a whale flag a guy (manually or with bots) it's a problem, cause a single whale can compromise the all post / user. Can we agree on this?
The value of SP was huge interest (not now, only in the beginning) it's giving rewards, but I would not say it's flagging people because you don't like what they write or you take revenge for godonlyknows.
Perhaps something like what Dan proposed, an easy way to use our steem to block the voting power of those who abuse their voting power, they have the means and knowlegde to use bots, the average user can't use bots, so it's orders of magnitute harder to repair the damage that a suposedly"bad bot" can do. We need a tool to easy counter bad actors. But wait, when Dan proposed this, "some" whales oposed it! go figure...
and btw most of downvotes/flags have nothing to do with "pending payout" in most cases this is used as an excuse, even in posts that don't have "pending payouts"
Actually for what downvote in create? I see a lot of great whales get downvotes @pfunk
Flags are wrong. Remove it from Steemit.
If you are referring to downvotes, they are a necessary part of reward distribution.
:) This is what most users see, I actually agree with you for the most part, but ignoring the UI... And demanding people call it something different doesn't change the situation.
All those who complain about flags don't seem to understand where the money comes from in the first place.
Can you elaborate?
I already have. So many times. The people who get it, get it. And the people who don't never do.
But here, I'll give you this link.
https://steemit.com/steemit/@neoxian/mini-rant-if-the-dev-s-implement-socialism-in-steemit-i-m-powering-down
So, it's like rich people (whales and early miners/users who invested little) decides where taxes are going (with upvotes) and not going (with flagging)...
It's that crazy idea that people who invested a lot of money in the system (or were smart or lucky enough to be there early on) get to decide how the system is used.
Or reverse that idea. People who aren't invested in the system and came late should have a large influence on the system?
And if you are going to take the position that everyone have an equal influence, then you are going to have to solve the sybil/bot problem.
I'm not saying how it should be, just how it is.It's not like whales gives their money, that would be tipping. Inflation hits whales and minnows at the same time.
For sure the huge amount of bots it's my main problem with this so-called social network.
I have no problem with rewards / power distribution per se, I have problem with post visibility / popularity affected by stake, that could be solved in the UI if only we had no bots.
Wow, really.. @skeptic wants his logic back.
Ok so, in your eyes, a minnow with an account worth 100$ And loses 10$ a year from inflation is the same thing as a whale with an account worth $100000 and losing $10000 a year.
If you believe that, then I have nothing more to say to you, and won't waste another second on you.
Can't we just vote the bad behavers off the island?
Ignoring the trolls will cause them to go away?
I'm not publishing for Steemit, but I'm still 100 % involved with the wonderful people and communities.
I'm really grateful to all that helped me and supported me in many ways.
But I hope Steemit can solve the problem of using people and content as numbers and not looking at its real intrinsic value: feelings and quality of attention given.
All users are guinea pigs in experiments because there is no consensus just plain war between the ones with oligarchic self-interest in the fight for Power, wich gives a bad impression of the rest of the Whales that respect human values.
This flag war must have an end!!!
The argument that Flagging will solve the problems of Steemit because the flag was not intended to be used as a gun for the wars of the fight for Power and Money of some control that do not their impulses of dominance and give a bad reputation to all the Whales.
Why do innocent bystanders being shot by the snipers of the Wars between some Rulers just wishing to climb the stairs for the Pyramide of Power and Wealth
They use arguments of acting under in the name of collective power and based in acephalous belief in populist, demagogic redemptorist and pseudo-security by underlying fear and unfortunately, there is a parallel on the growth of people following "authoritarian benevolent figures" and falling down under the arguments of fake security to dissipate their fears
We have the "alt right like profile" of whales just being abusive and showing their authority by fear and the ones with "alt-left like profile" (false communalism) propagating that they are working for the community, but just disguising their will for totalitarian power.
They both use the same Gun - Flagging with grenades on others people space.
This flag war that many conservative groups support will destroy this still realizable utopia if people don't understand how to fight for their rights to post and not been harassed, disturbed and annoyed.
One of the signs of the times is the increase of fascistic figures winning elections and climbing the stairs of the Pyramide of Power and Wealth.
In Harsh Times People don't respond anymore to arguments, just to emotions the worst way to solve actual centralized oligarchic power resulting in just the castration and mystification of people's opinion and total inequality
Power is silencing the voices of discord as "misfits" and just give us fake news in the interest of a few, generating a crisis in public centralized leadership trust.
We are in an Era that people must understand that to follow leaders in decentralized systems is not a good strategy for self-autonomy and freedom, because sooner or later they will impose their "belly buttons" to the people following them.It's a time to understand the total delusion of collectivist power.
What we need is "Agents of Change", because they try to change themselves with the same principles they want to act and I see same whales acting this way.
They are guided by what they think is the best solution for all the members of a community and have the "motto" of facilitating an environment for the spread of autonomy, self-awareness, and free speech, as the keys to personal freedom that the Agent believe in the first place.
That's right... power is the problem.. either upvoting or downvoting... It is not fair a person to decide not to have a reward at all and kill your rep or to give you a great reward...
It is fair for a whale though to have more power but not that more...
So I just thing that there should be a less but fair amount of power for whales to upvote.
There should be not downvote but flagging . Flagging should destroy reputation BUT maybe each person should have only one vote for the same person. Maybe not even a post flag.. Like "Follow"-"Mute"-"Flag"
So when you flag the other person loses some rep and also his posts are fading out for you... then other persons have to downvote him...
The @krnel is back! I am really excited about finally fixing this problem with HF 19. For months now I have been casually watching Steemits demise, wondering how intelligent people could let something with so much potential be destroyed by greed. Many, many people have pointed out the problem and I hope they are finally taking notice.
Hi Krnel,
Welcome back. The great flag drama has died down a bit around here. It is interesting to me also how people ignore each issue until it impacts them directly. (I've said this to you before)
Anyway, no matter the topic I was glad to see you come back.
Great to hear from you, I thought you dropped out of existence.
Flagging is annoying but if used in a non-malicious way it can be effective but so far is the affectiveness of it that we mainly see.
Ehh.. I have been flagged and I have flagged seeing the full spectrum. It is a great way to rid the platform of thin-skinned crybabies who lied about staying for the community.
In truth, everyone wants their post to have value whether by money or through impact on the reader. Upvotes are supposed to reflect this but often don't.
Spamming the network, bullying, irrelevant tags, hate speech, and general disregard for other people should be the reason flags are dropped. Not because a greedy heart desires more value than others.
At least from my point of view.
Make flagging great again!!! Why does that sound familiar???
Very interesting to discuss @krnel, the reality is like that, but if someone like me can not do much
Winning!
Whats the answer and why wont they fix it?
Good to see you back!
Hey thanks for taking time to write!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....
Don't beat yourself up. I think you are trying to do good. In my opinion flags are OK but not as a way to oppress the new, fresh or the weak. There should be an arbitrary level under which people do not touch the poor or the new. It can be devastatingly demotivating and we want as much people as possible to stay. Upvoted and linked to my last post.
I complained even though I feared the whale flags. Seriously I'm confused about the issue now, I dunno what the hells-bells is going on. The chaos makers are making me feel dizzy.
I applaud you for actually taking action and forcing a solution on those that will not listen. I have thought if you consistently Downvoted or flagged people that are always on the trending pages, change would happen. Some people seem to be immune to the whole situation for reasons I don't want to speculate on. People understand money and exploiting the flaw in this system will hasten action. So glad to see someone actually taking action for change and not just complaining about it! I wish more people had the guts to risk going against the grain to make steemit the powerhouse it should be.
Oh good, you're back! I'll get my bot back up and running!
Dang it, Bernie, was it something I said?
Yes. There's no reason to vote people off the island. That is a terrible precedent to even suggest.
Ok, now I am confused.
What do we do with the spammers and never ending trolls?
The ones that make life difficult for folks we like?
I know folks like to point to you as an example, but I don't see that you have harmed maliciously, merely in response to what you deem necessary.
What do you propose we, as a community, set the default response to be?
When we see our friend getting hassled, what should we expect to happen?
The spammers and trolls will be handled, just as they are today. When someone has issues, find someone who can help negate them. If it's not warranted there are plenty of people like me who will negate them.
That is kinda what I thought, I haven't seen any real abuse that persisted, but when I hear complaints I always send them to a witness.
Thanks for what you do for us, Bernie!