I've had a lot of requests from people with many different opinions on how to handle SPS rewards in Soul Keep. After hosting multiple AMAs with their CEO and doing my best to try to work towards finding amicable solutions that should ultimately benefit the ecosystem, such as the DEC burns and asking their team to implement SPS staking requirements, I'm still getting nearly daily complaints.
At this point, I think the best option is to just run a stake-weighted poll and let the community determine how it wants to proceed. I would like to remind everyone to keep the comments respectful and the arguments focused on the issue and not the individuals. Thanks for participating!
thanks clay 🙏🏾
what are some other types of options. Adding SPS staking requirement is really the only change we can think of?
I'd be open to any solution that fixes the basic issue.
As it stands right now, a few individuals can drain a lot of the rewards without any stake in the ecosystem and that needs to be stopped.
Staking rewards is the way we did it in Splinterlands, so this was the obvious route to go for me. But if there's a better solution I'm all for it.
Well they already added the one that I thought made the most sense for the web2/3 hybrid approach they're going for, which we had a proposal for and passed with like 95% positive support, which is to burn DEC equivalent to 50% of sales.
From the amount of persistent complaints I get about this issue and people wanting to either add staking requirements or kill the rewards entirely, it seems like these are the options people want. I haven't had any other recommendations, but if you can think of something that they may agree to, let me know.
Yeah, since that already passed, that's a potential issue here. It seems like that was passed as an alternative to SPS staking requirements. If they have to implement SPS staking and burn half of the DEC they get in sales, that might be too crippling. It's worth a conversation, though. It's a little broken the way it is now.
The DEC burn helps DEC, but it doesn't do much to deter people from exploiting the game by running multiple accounts in the same league that can get more leaderboard spots with fewer attempts. In some cases, the alts don't need to use any tickets, so they're getting that SPS without spending any DEC.
Can we get some clarity on what the specific problem(s) is/are this poll is supposedly trying to fix? I'm seeing different people with different issues and staking doesn't necessarily fix any much less all of them.
How about polling on what the primary issues are and we work on ideas for them individually.
The issues are SPS inflation and having a handful of guys running a ton of accounts and swapping cards that more or less own nothing and drain the majority of the rewards. SPS staking is the suggested fix to combat the multi-accounting abuse... just shutting down the rewards is what some people have been asking for most of the last year. The problems are very well known and have been complained about for literally months in the Discord. I've hosted multiple AMAs with their team that you can listen to on the SPS DAO youtube channel. At this point it's likely SPS staking or nothing.
Thanks for getting back to me. See those are separate issues imo and maybe not fixed with just staking.
With enough players buying tickets and boxes, you were right earlier that the 50% burn could work well. I think many people don't understand how much the replay costs ramp up. We need to increase players for it to all to work though and stake requirements will not do anything for that. I kinda like costanza's idea below to increase the payouts to more people. If more people win, the individual payouts will be less and not look so bloated and should drive more players to play. That does require fixing your next issue...
Multi accounts is a different issue. If Splinterlands can run official tournaments with KYC in place to be sure it is fair, why can't we just do that for Soulkeep tournaments. Also are there not limits in place to prevent swapping the same cards all around. I thought Splinterlands had something for this and Soulkeep should too.
Staking requirements are simply unfair and hamper growth potential imo. I own 30x as much sps now as I initially bought, and it is worth less than 25% my initial investment. Depending on the going rate of the staked token some people will get to play and earn for way less than others all depending on when you buy in. During a bull run you risk that new players will look at staking costs and just opt out entirely.
Edit: Also I have seen the DAO hall AMAs. Thank you for doing those. The CEO laid out a game plan in the last one I think has real potential. Releasing the mobile non-crypto version and trying to onboard from there. This could have some real potential and spill over to Splinterlands but once again I don't think stake requirements will be helpful and can actively lower retention rates.
The more you stake SPS, the more rewards you will share, which is better.
They should definitely implement SPS staking. If they want to get non-crypto people into it, they should have a version that earns no rewards, for people to try it out and see if they like it. I don't think people who aren't into crypto are going to even want to bother with the SPS rewards at all, let alone SPS staking. Let them try out the game without worrying about any of that. They could still even sell soul boxes in that free versions. People spend money on games with no crypto rewards all the time.
Thanks for sharing! - @azircon
Of these 3 I went with Change Nothing. I've been playing it since launch and I play 1 account currently in League 5.
First off Soul Boxes just went live. Nobody can possibly know yet if that is going to be enough of a sink coupled with ticket sales. Some of the people complaining don't know how much ticket costs ramp up as you progress. In league 5 it costs 59 tickets(236 DEC) for your first replay.
Stake requirements will not change some of the complaints I'm seeing like multi-accounting in 1 league, especially lower level leagues since they'll have lower SPS stake requirements. Maybe KYC options could be considered but I know people have issues with that.
The CEO already told everyone complaining how if the pay out is to much SPS to to few people what is needed to change it...more people need to play the game. The more people on the leaderboards the less the payouts will be for any single player. More players also equals more ticket/box sales which is more DEC burning. I just added up the last tournament's total account count... 248 accounts made attempts with 132 receiving a payout. Less than 150 people shared the reward pool for all 10 Leagues. When the reward pool is meant to be payed out across thousands of players not a hundred of course the rewards are going to be higher.
Edit: I'd be interested in seeing how many people having some of these issues or suggesting how the game needs to be changed are actually playing it.
It's a mix... the ones that are just like "kill rewards entirely" I'd say mostly don't play or care at all about it. A lot of the ones that are asking for staking do play and see the abuse and the people calling for shutting off rewards entirely and are suggesting adding staking to fix the situation before things go the other way.
clayboyn could you take a look at the following suggestions I just posted and give your thoughts?
https://peakd.com/hive-13323/@ocoma/soulkeep-pay-more-not-less-a-counter-suggestion-to-staking
I can take a look at it. Worth understanding that this whole situation is a bit beyond me at this point and I'm just mostly looking for how the DAO wants to proceed as it seems like there are two camps at the moment: kill all rewards and force staking requirements.
Originally I pitched the idea to burn DEC to David to get ahead of this issue, but it seems SPS stakeholders are still not happy, so I'm gathering feedback to share with him and help illustrate the current situation. At this point I don't know what to expect, they could just decide to go their own way and leave Splinterlands behind entirely I guess.
I'm for adding staking requirements but I don't think it should start with Level 2 without seeing what DC feels about it. For that reason, I voted to Change Nothing. If the third option were to add SPS staking requirements but consult with DC to figure out what level it should start at and to determine the amount needed, then I would have voted for that option. We need to make sure the game can retain as many players as possible, which is needed for the game to be sustainable. The reason SPS wasn't put in, to begin with, was because DC thought that would hinder retaining new players.
I just made the poll based on the feedback I was getting at the time... I think as long as the lion's share of rewards are gated behind SPS staking requirements that it would be fine... maybe top 75% of rewards or something (since they're going to add more).
I think a discussion about this should be had with DC. We shouldn't be deciding how many levels and how much SPS needs to be staked on our own. We should do that with DC to figure out the best way to do it. A small group of the most die-hard SK players could be selected to work on it with DC, or something like that.
Yea... I've already had that discussion (publicly). People don't seem to care. Ultimately it isn't up to DC either.
My hope is we can find some kind of reasonable solution that adds value to the ecosystem and doesn't just kill the rewards as that's going to burn all the people that bought the packs/cards and play, but it's a DAO... the DAO is going to vote however it wants to vote.
To start, I enjoy Soulkeep but feel there is no chance whatsoever for it ever to get some adoption unless some basic flaws are fixed.
The reward payouts are extremely top-heavy to the point where only a few players end up getting all the rewards each day while there is no need for this to be like that. That should be evened out way more and I would also take half of the reward pool for each league and guarantee a payout partly to players who manage to beat the first level and some extra to those who beat the bonus level. It makes no sense to move up in leagues even if you get the cards and get stuck outside of the 50%.
The 150$+ Pay2Win Hero is also a massive issue. If you don't own it you stand no chance in the game and it totally breaks the motivation as without it feels the best you can get is just inside of the lowest paid spots especially since it is free to use in the game. No new players will come in because of this extreme pay2win dynamic.
As for changes to make Soulkeep actually valuable for Splinterlands. Maybe giving players a free test run each day and if they want to actually play for the leaderboard they have to pay the ticket price which would help to secure future rewards also once they run out of SPS. Some kind of SPS staking requirement also would be nice.
I kinda like your first idea and think maybe something could be done there. As much as 50% of each league's rewards get shared evenly between everyone who beats the first map. The remaining rewards are then payed out as currently is setup by total score. This I think would encourage more players to at least do the daily free shot.
I kinda disagree with your 2nd point though. I have 1 yes and it can make a huge difference yes, but it is not an I win button. I've stupidly placed it more than once and watched it get blitzed. I've also replayed some days 3-4 times and scored higher in later matches when the hero was on cooldown.
I don't own the hero and never used it, so I'm kind of going off the assumption that it makes a huge difference also seeing the price it goes for. It might not be as bad as I think, but the fact remains that new players have the same reaction. I guess in a way it's similar to the Quad Killer for those who don't own it.
I wouldn't mind the pay2win aspect if the rewards weren't so top-heavy and if there was something like a guaranteed reward for being able to complete a tournament.
It has less hit points than an equal level Slime Trooper while doing slightly more damage at range than the trooper does up close. Up close the hero does about 1/3 as much damage per swing. If more than 1 mob gets on her she can go down fast. Some mobs can 1v1 her.
I think the game could use at least another hero maybe 2 or 3. It has that big hero slot in the center and everyone should get to use it. We have a legendary now maybe a common, rare and epic. A decent tank hero might be good, a ton of hp and defense but almost no damage output. Something to stand at a chokepoint so towers can do their thing. Some other ideas could be floated. If everyone could play some kind of hero I don't think the current one would be such a big deal.
Indeed, it would be nice for there to be more heroes and affordable ones. However, this will devalue the current heroes an upset the ones who own them.
I just posted 2 suggested changes and credited you one of them. See what you think.
https://peakd.com/hive-13323/@ocoma/soulkeep-pay-more-not-less-a-counter-suggestion-to-staking
I don't play SoulKeep, I don't have any assets, and I'm generally not interested in the game at all. Therefore, I voted to remove SPS rewards. Have some Glint instead!
At least you're honest, I guess?
It seems that it is for the best to be straightforward. I have no problem with people who do hold SoulKeep assets to vote for the proposal, but either way I don't feel too strongly about it. Whatever...
I think the rewards for each league should go to all players. Even if it's a small amount. It makes trying worth something. You can get 3 SPS for 10th out of 20. Why not make the last half get somehting
Just to be clear I think. If SPS rewards are removed I will probably never play this game again. I believe this sentiment will be 90% of those who play. I wouldn't really play Splinterlands if there was no reward for playing.