I often engage in a few high-risk activities including shooting. Guns are inherently dangerous and when a human being is added the threat-level rises exponentially. A firearm can't load and shoot itself, it takes a human being to marry up the firearm and ammunition, take the gun in hand and shoot it - That's where problems arise.
I've been a shooter for over thirty years and despite being what I would consider an extremely safe and confident operator have been around many incredibly dangerous situations involving firearms and on every occasion it was human-stupidity that caused the situation. Some of these occasions went badly however getting lucky also occurred. I just don't like to rely on luck when it comes to firearms safety though; deliberately safe practices are best.
Range safety
Last week I was at the range to speak with a chap there, not shooting. I concluded my business and wandered about to have a look what was going on around the facility. All looked good and all sounded good, gunfire rang out all over the place and everyone looked to be doing the right thing and then I heard shouting - not something one usually hears on a range - where things should be calm and measured generally. I'm a range officer so thought I'd investigate this unusual occurrence.
I watched as three individuals interacted in animated ways, exclaiming and laughing loudly and generally not acting in a manner befitting a gun range. They seemed to be handling the firearms safely however and there's no rule against laughter so I stood back, almost out of sight, and watched.
I recognised a member, a young military guy and the other two wore visitor badges. My range is military-run but open to civilians by application and it's not unusual to see the two groups mix. I was looking at the lad letting his two mates shoot some guns; again, not uncommon. The young guy is a cook in the Army, not a special forces operator, and his firearms skills are poor, certainly where handguns are concerned anyway, because they generally only train with rifles. So, I didn't expect him to be an expert however, as always at the range, I expected a high degree of safety and adherence to the rules.
Condition zero
I watched as the chap loaded a couple of magazines then handed them to his mate who loaded one turned down range and squeezed off a half-dozen rounds in quick succession, hitting nothing. He turned his head towards his mate, the Army cook, and grinned broadly. They spoke a while and then...Here it is...Did not clear the handgun. They simply walked back towards a small table, carrying it in hand, and laid the handgun on it and proceeded to chat.
I know, it doesn't sound like much of a safety breach but, in truth, it's massive.
The procedure when shooting is completed is to clear the handgun: Take out the magazine, rack the gun to eject any round chambered round, hold the slide open, show the range officer who says clear, slide forward, hammer down and holster. The shooter lets the slide go and pulls the trigger to drop the hammer, holsters and locks the handgun in place. The range officer says, range is clear and that's that. This happens every time and naturally when this procedure is done the muzzle is pointed downrange at all times.
If you know anything about semi-automatic handguns you'll know that when one fires it the spent case is ejected and, if there's rounds in the magazine, another round loads. The slide cocks the hammer and the firearm is ready to fire once more. That happens in a split second. Those lads didn't clear the gun so it was still a live range, the gun was still loaded, now resting on a bench. Inexcusable and potentially deadly.
The five conditions
- Condition 4: Chamber empty, no magazine, hammer down, safety on.
- Condition 3: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down, safety on.
- Condition 2: Chambered round, full magazine in place, hammer down, safety on.
- Condition 1: Chambered round, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on.
- Condition 0: Chambered round, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.
These are the five ways a handgun can be carried with condition zero being one in which the risk of accidental discharge (AD) or negligent discharge could result in injury or death. At my range, condition four is the only way one should have the firearm once off the shooting line, except the safety doesn't have to be on, and it needs to be checked and verified by a range officer prior to being holstered.
Excuses not accepted
I went over quickly and as they looked up said, that handgun wasn't cleared, step back from the bench.
They looked confused and the Army guy had the sense to look horrified, obviously knowing what was coming, but they complied. I stepped to the bench where three handguns were sitting, picked up the one that had just been placed, turned down range and dropped the magazine, cleared the firearm and made it safe. There was a round in the chamber and three more in the magazine. I then checked the other two which were clear.
I asked the young lad to pack them away and when done recorded his membership number. The other two were not members, just friends of the lad visiting the range to shoot guns. I sent them home.
Over that day and the next few the incident was investigated with the result being the young lad has had his membership revoked; he has been at the club long enough to know the rules and this behaviour is not tolerated. He had a chance to speak of course however there was nothing he could have said that would have saved him. He failed to adhere to several fundamental rules of firearms safety and blatantly broke a few club rules as well. There is no flexibility.
Firearms can be safely and responsibly owned and operated and there should be no compromise when it comes to firearms safety; literally none, especially on a range.
In the field extenuating circumstances cause incidents and those incidents often lead to serious ramifications. On a range, a controlled environment, there is zero excuse for safety breaches. Mistakes happen, a finger on a trigger when it should not be, an operator breaking 90 degrees with the muzzle and so on and when these things occur they're dealt with in various ways depending on the severity and potential implication of the breach: Re-training, disqualification from an event, ejection from the range and sometimes memberships are revoked.
A shooting incident at a range here would draw a lot of unwanted attention; firearms and their owners get a bad enough reputation as it is. It's for that reason, and of course general safety, that the rules exist and are so stringently enforced. I feel sorry for the kid but I'd feel a lot worse if someone was shot because I didn't take the time to act.
I know there's not many firearms people here, but safety relates to all of us. Feel free to comment if you've had a case where safe practices have not been adhered to and it caused an issue or potential issue either at home, work or in general society.
Design and create your ideal life, don't live it by default - Tomorrow isn't promised so be humble and kind
Discord: galenkp#9209
The image is mine
Yikes, that's a new one for me. First, who doesn't empty a magazine on the range? I mean your whole reason to be there is to "shoot off" a gun, not your mouth. Can you enjoy conversation? certainly .. but leaving a loaded gun on the table/bench .. that's clearly inappropriate and (as you've clearly articulated) unsafe.
If you get through basic training in any military, I'd hope you learn the importance of gun safety.. regardless of your role or rank in said military. While forgiveness is a good practice, so are hard lessons. Hopefully this young man understands the unnecessary and preventable risk that he created and doesn't hold a grudge.
This what was so strange. I mean, I've taken so many people shooting and have never seen a person fail to empty a magazine. Not once. It happens in competition of course, and training, but when one is out to blast rounds down range...Never. It was weird, and weird that the Army lad let it happen.
I think the problem with the military these days (generally speaking) is lack of resources. Most of the firearms training is with rifle only, I mean for general-entry types, and then unless one is designated infantry, it's a simple qualification shoot periodically. The term warrior should be used loosely these days. Furthermore most of the training is in an electronic range with real rifles that don't actually shoot rounds, rather than live fire on a range. I think it's just too costly. It's dumb. I think that combines to leave people with less understanding and the result is errors. This country is so ill-prepared to go to war these days. If we didn't have friends the country would/could be overrun in minutes.
Anyway, the young kid will learn a lesson or not. I hope so.
I shoot until its empty, and put it away empty.
Yep, that's pretty much how it is right? There's pro eases at the range though and clearly these lads didn't go through them. So...Price paid. I was a little surprised to see rounds left in the mag. Had they emptied it down range and then failed to do the other stuff then it would have been a reprimand and retraining situation. As it was, not much wriggle room.
Oh well, there's always a line up to get into my range so now there's a place available.
awesome man! yea hopefully some new, and more respectful folks filter in!
I hope so. Idiots need not apply. 😀
But they sadly do apply, LOL 🤕🤠😭
Haha, indeed Tobes, indeed.
What could possibly go wrong? x_x
The not paying attention to whether the gun was safe was mildly terrifying, though given that you started calmly I figured everything ended about as well as it could end.
I didn't feel under threat or I wouldn't have gone over,but I couldn't fail to act.
Sometimes things happen, people get distracted, and I think this was the case here. It's not acceptable of course, but it happens. Addressed and dealt with though. Poor lad, I liked him actually. #lessonlearned
I was more thinking someone goes to pick up the gun to put it away or start shooting again or whatever and accidentally discharges it into someone else x_x
That too yes.
Damn! That's a harsh outcome for him, but considering the consequences, not just the fallout that the range might get but the potential loss of life or serious injury, I get it. Sounds like the right thing, and a good example for others of how seriously they need to treat safety there. Truth is, I've had a safety lapse or two (accidental flagging, with finger off trigger of course) with my own unsupervised public land range, but I think I would have been more vigilant if there were supervision.
So with the laws in your jurisdiction, is that guy basically fucked out of his pistols by getting his club membership revoked?
Unfortunately these scenarios are often treated as object lessons for everyone else, at the expense of some poor unfortunate, in this case the young lad.
I think we've all flagged, all moved with the finger on the trigger and so on; those are the things we treat with more understanding. But loaded gun on bench? Nope.
With respect to the last point...Yeah, the lad will have to gain membership at another club/range or his H-class license will be revoked. We are helping him do so.
I suppose I've left loaded and chambered rifles with the safety on on the range table, and I don't really see that as a problem. But the scenario is different as out where I shoot, I know who's there and it's hard for someone to show up unannounced.
This post does make me think that the small inconvenience of having to put a mag in and chamber a round when I want to pick my rifle up is worth the safety aspect, though. And it's a good habit to establish.
You're right and in certain circumstances that's probably fine - I shoot a lot on private property and in solitude so what happens there is quite different. At the range, my range in any case, it's inexcusable and the kid knew it as soon as he saw me too.
Cutting corners when no one is looking is a bad habit when it comes to firearms. Having said that, when I hunt and cull I work the bolt back to closed and pull the trigger, then insert the loaded mag and leave it in that condition - Impossible to fire. When I need to shoot I work the bolt and shoot. When done I take the mag out and do the process again and off I go. I never use the safety. At a range I'd never do that though.
Your last line...I think safety is always a good habit and at ranges a must.
Most ranges I go to are more privately owned, and he would likely have gotten off with a documented warning, forced repeat of the required range safety/rules course, then termed if there were a repeat offense. As you say an accident can have incredibly bad publicity and put not only that range, but all nearby ranges at risk of more legislation, restrictions, or eliminations. Sad the world has come to this, but it has and we need to protect those valuable resources as you did.
I know, and in a way I was a bit surprised the decision was made to revoke membership, a decision I had nothing to do with. The problem is that if it wasn't dealt with effectively a precedent is set I guess; at least this the membership-base is under no misconceptions abour how safety breaches are going to be handled. It su led to have to be the person to start the process however I take firearms safety seriously and I couldn't not act.
There's no leeway here when incidents happen Kris, an accidental shooting would probably see an end to the range.
Totally understand the concerns. Our rules were set back in a time when accidents were not as big of a deal, just another accident, made the news, people went about their business. The political climate here is now in similar shape where a single event no matter how unlikely of repetition would be the cause of left wing outcry and closure.
It's sad really. I mean safety should never take a holiday where firearms are concerned but the reactions of
societygovernment and media are rarely justified, warranted or logical. Society plays along from there like lemmings.That's a mega oof moment. Range 101: Load at the shooting table, unload before leaving the shooting table. Acton open or flag inserted if possible. Don't sweep people with the muzzle regardless.
I would note that the 5 conditions certainly apply to SA & DA semi-auto handguns, but not so much to striker-fired guns which may only have a trigger tab as a safety. The P365 I wrote about a few months back is designed to be carried in what is effectively condition zero, provided the holster covers and secures the entire trigger guard.
I have carried an SA in Condition 1 and a DA in Condition 2 in the woods. Around here, safe gun handling is ingrained in the rural culture. I'm a lot more concerned about Californian invaders who don't have that culture than I am about the redneck backwoods yahoos.
Hahah I can only imagine the people who leave Commiefornia and go somewhere they can shoot. Not funny considering people can and do get hurt because of that but when lots of these people leave their ivory towers and see how the rest of the world lives, many want to shoot guns and hunt and stuff. I've heard of it many times, but will it be enough to stave off the ridiculous agenda?
It's not just guns. They also tend to spend loads of money on ATVs and then us them to make a lot of noise and dust like they don't respect their neighbors, for example.
You're right indeed about the striker-fired...I guess I was trying to be fairly generic and uncomplicated in my post.
I guess the point is that safety is a critical factor which is why this young lad had to accept the rather brutal consequences of his actions. An example was made. One must know the rules and stick to them...The implications of not doing can be horrendous.
We don't use flags at all and there's no table essentially. We're running and gunning. All the loading and unloading is done under the direction of the RO and at the end of the stage, wherever on the course the shooter is the RO goes through the unload and make safe/holster process. It's expected this is done at all times and that lad failed to do so. I felt sorry for him, but I'd feel more sorry if someone got shot in the face.
Australia still issues the Browning Hi-Power, right? It looks like Springfield Armory is offering a new production line here in the US, and I have to admit a certain temptation to splurge on a classic steel self-loader despite my appreciation for modern polymer technology.
Yes, at this stage it's issued until review in 2022. There will be a cross-over with it's replacement prior to final phasing out.
Glock 17's have been in use (East Timor deployment) for some personnel although has not been widely adopted thankfully. The RAAF (Air Force) use the Glock Model G19 as their standard Jet Aircrew Pistol and Special Forces units have their choice, mainly 9mm HKs and Berretta's among others.
I like the polymer sidearms to be honest. My CZ P-09 has performed faultlessly; it just runs.
I like steel pistols, whether self-loaders or wheelguns, on the range. I'm no expert marksman, but I appreciate the feel of a good single-action trigger on a hammer-fired gun. However, for EDC, polymer wins for sure. Less weight is a good thing, because it may never be fired outside range practice, but carrying even a couple fewer ounces all day makes a huge difference. Besides, companies like Walther and SIG have dramatically improved on the old spongy-springy Glock triggers.
Indeed. I use a CZ Shadow 2 on the range for IPSC and it performs better than the P-09 without a doubt. We can't EDC as you know but I work on the premise we can and have all of the equipment to do so. It's unlikely the law will change however I'd rather be prepared for what may come than be ill-prepared. You know? Just my nature. Lol...Glock triggers. I know what you mean here...Not the best although getting better? Hmm, not sure.
Reviews say the new generation is markedly improved, but most people seem to recommend budgeting for an aftermarket drop-in trigger kit anyway. The only real benefit to Glock over its newer competitors is the wide availability of mags and parts for repairs and modifications. Whenever I get around to my next rifle post, I plan to also mention the pros and cons of glock mag compatibility with PCCs.
For an outsider it may sound harsh to boot someone for putting down a gun without it being cleared. Understanding the reality of what could happen when the next person picks it up changes your point of view though. In any other situation I would have opted for teaching and training. If you have been on a range a couple of times you should know to check your buddies.
I agree, it seems harsh...But having the police turn up at someone's house to tell their wife the husband was shot in the face and killed wouldn't be so good...So rules are in place and must be adhered to. Yes, strict rules and harsh consequences for breaking them; but required.
This lad has been a member of the range for a couple years which was taken into consideration; had he been new, a few months or so, retraining would have happened. The lad knew better and that was that. He let is ego get the better of him and was showing off - Not acceptable.
Thanks for your comment, much appreciated.
Two comments besides he should know better, and full training on range rules.
First, when I take someone to the range; every firearm is loaded with 5 rounds. This lets me keep track of their progress.
Second, not range related; my CC pistol is designed to be carried with a round in the chamber, and a full magazine. It is a double action semiautomatic, and the hammer can't be cocked externally. They only way to cock, and thus fire it; is a ridiculously long trigger pull. I keep it in a holster, which further shields the trigger, in my pocket daily; as it was designed to be carried. The only drawbacks the trigger travel when you need to shoot it. That takes some getting used to, but it is accurate one you get through the 'trigger training' phase.
I also make my visitors ask me to be sure the correct ammunition is used! I don't want a 9mm chambered into a Takerov....
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Agreed, I start with one for brand new shooters then work up.
On the second point...Yep, there's handguns which are reasonably safe to holster in Condition Zero. I have a P-09 that has no safety; it uses a de-cocking lever and Condition Zero is considered safe (as such) in certain circumstances in the field. At the range...Nope, if holstered it's Condition One (Even though there's no safety as such. Rules are rules.
No one touches my CC but me. It stays in the holster all the time! When I practice with it, I don't have company; as it is Work. I load short magazines, and put deliberate dead rounds (no powder, spent primer) for random failures...clearing practice. We have a pistol course at the range, not a place for newbies!
This shoot is copied from the CLEET training exercises, and can get pretty intense. Sometimes my Son comes along, and we both run it alternately, with his service pistol and my CC.
Both 9mm, but his is twice the size, and easier to shoot. I may run it with the 45acp, but that is slower, and more work. I do love that pistol though....
The more people we can introduce to shooting, the better off we are. Here it helps with political pressure, and most importantly with safe carry!
Keep your powder dry.
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Familiarity with equipment is essential to safe operation and by making the processes habit, second nature like breathing, the safety increases. Alas, only the rare few take the steps you and I take; most just blast away.
Ammunition is too expensive to just burn magazines empty. That is one of the other advantages to the 5 round limit at the range.
It is fun to teach a new shooter how to be safe and accurate!
My sister just bought a new one, but I won't let her carry it until she comes to the range with me. The funny part is that she bought it, and is waiting while her range ammunition comes in!
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You folks still having ammunition issues? I'd thought that had sorted itself out.
There have been a record number of new firearms purchased in the last year, and they all need ammunition. Prices have tripled when you can find it!
She bought a 22 wmr pistol, from keltec. She wouldn't be safe with anything heavier, and in close it is impressive. The 30 round magazines will reduce the need for magazine changes, but this training will be difficult! I want her to shoot 200 rounds minimum, in two trips. First for safety and function, and the second for accuracy.
Most vendors limit purchase quantity to 2 boxes total per day. Last time I went out for ammo, I stopped at 6 stores, and picked up 10 boxes.
Primers are getting hard to find too, and powder has doubled. I cast a lot of the slower bullet points, and even put a few gas checks on the 6.5 mm; and slow her down where they can work.
Be safe!
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That's what happens when your ego gets in your way. Showing off in front of a friend can get you kicked out. Don't mess with the G ;).
Yep, I think there was a little bit of showing off in front of his mates. All that shouting and yelling drew my attention and I wonder what was going on at that point...Anyway, the long and short of it is what happened and it'll not be an issue again, not with this chap anyway.
As others have said and many who read this are wondering: why the hell don’t you shoot until it’s empty?! That’s weird. It wasn’t a .357 magnum or anything so it’s not like it hurts.. lol (went on a date once and the girl insisted on shooting that thing. I never shot one before and she only used one round, I paid for the full set of rounds so I had to shoot the other 4 or 5 left lol little tender on the wrist after that one!)
Sad that the military only trains rifle for these people. Budget cuts, yatta yatta I get it but in the military regardless of your station I would think you should be able to shoot a pistol or a rifle.
I’m glad the situation didn’t turn out worse but that guy got a fast lesson in what not to do. It was a safe lesson (considering nobody got hurt) thankfully, but one I’m hoping he never forgets! It’s crazy what we think of, that not only someone could have gotten worse but we fear the shit the media would spin to make it worse. Fucking media!
Yeah, he didn't have a reason for that, but in truth he should have had the presence of mind to drop the mag, eject the chambered round etc. Dumbass. (him I mean.)
Yeah, the Army focus on what's issued and general infantry are not issued sidearms mostly. It's amazing how many of these people come to the range with zero idea other than what they've seen on TV. I shit you not.
Shootings at ranges like mine often mean closure so rules are often strict and stringently enforced to mitigate the potential for problems. That's why this chap was treated so brutally. He deserved it, as would I had I made the error.
I don't shoot guns because I'm a clown and probably end up shooting my foot, but this is an excellent reminder to treat guns with respect if you're around them.
It's good that you acknowledge the reason you don't shoot guns. You mention shooting your own foot but that's not the worst thing; shooting an innocent bystander would be far worse. Still, you'll probably never have to worry about it.
I'm a pretty dexterous guy, so I can handle the mechanical aspects of the gun. But I can be a bit absent minded, and I think to handle guns properly, you need to be focused in the moment. I mean, even a relatively professional guy like Dick Cheney can let his guard down.
Absent mindedness and firearms don't mix. It speaks highly of you that you understand that and stay away from firearms.
I was a teacher once in a school, the school was new and constructions were still going on in the building.
There was a particular class that was being used that shouldn’t have been because it was o the second floor and the balcony had no barricades,
I tried to alarm the Principal that the class wasn’t safe for kids but all fell on deaf ears, until one afternoon a student fell off the balcony and was rushed to hospital, I was irritated and angered to my bones, because it was something that could have been entirely avoided.
Another case was when a friend wanted to travel out of town but with a leaking car tank, the fuel tank hit something and was leaking fuel, but he thought he could just ignore it until he reached the next town, interesting thing was that he wanted me to go with him. Ofcourse I declined, until I got a call in the middle of the night that he was stuck somewhere on the way and needed help. I helped him eventually but in the morning.
I don’t know how some people are comfortable neglecting safety. The magnitude of the repercussion is always more than just taking the safety serious
Hopefully those guys learnt their lessons
Yep, familiar stories here. People must think, I'll get away with it it one more time or something. It's all good until someone gets hurt or killed. I don't mind so much when a person chooses to put themselves in danger but when it affects someone else also...I have an issue with it.
Gun rights, or no rights.
Safety first, firm hand, breath slowly, aim, fire.
Put gun on safety (if applicable), clear magazine or empty it, check barrel.
People should always be safe with weapons.
Firearm safety is very important indeed.
Yes humble is the key, tomorrow was not promised for each and every souls, living a life of someone whose going to die tomorrow. Be kind like someone begging for chance
Indeed. I get the impression you missed the point of the post though. Did you read it?
Oh yes the Recreational target shooting is the use of a firearm on targets and the recklessly, or without regard for the safety of any person. Yet the tag below is impressive
It appears they did not read it lol
I'd say you're right on that count. Too many words. Why does G-dog write so many words...WHHHYYYYY!
Ahhh this was so good to know that justice was made! I agree with sticking to the rules and following procedures, especially with guns. No exceptions and no flexibility! Well done G!
Yeah, there's little flexibility when it comes to firearm safety.
Rule Number 1: Always treat any firearm as if it’s loaded and ready to kill anything it’s pointed at.
Rule Number 2: When in doubt, see Rule Number 1.
A good ethos to have indeed. I'd say that many incidents could have been avoided had people done so. Alas, there's always idiots and mistakes and accident will also happen of course. When all the safety aspects are combined though firearms can be safely operated and enjoyed. Like I say above, firearms themselves rarely cause the problem, it's the human behind it.
The whole incidence is so breathtaking. I wasn't aware of it all. No. I don't own a gun but having knowledge is key after all. There is so much more to learn and know. I can't stop thinking if something would have gone wrong. Such information is so important. This was very helpful, thank you so much.
Safety is a priority where firearms are concerned and when safety is compromised it's more likely someone gets injured or killed.
True. Few of these aspects on security are quite well known by many but when it comes to acting it out, many of us are lost and even do not understand the seriousness of the situation and end up being ignorant causing harm ultimately. It is unfortunate to be known yet being unknown.
Yes and quite the apropos story considering the tragic misuse of a gun here by Alec Baldwin which tragically took a life and has filled our press for the past week.
Yes I've heard about that; I didn't want to comment as I don't really know the details. What's clear though is that procedures weren't in place or followed. If they were it wouldn't have happened. Same as the Brandon Lee killing on the set of The Crow.