In March 2020, I bought a few hundred euros of Bitcoin for my birthday - it is worth a few hundred more than that today. What I wanted to do however, was buy two full BTC with a percentage of the renovation money we had got from the bank, because it was dipping hard with the news of Covid and I knew it was going to move up again rapidly. My wife said no.
We had an interesting conversation about status trust this evening and I brought this up.
But first I asked,
If an electrician comes to do some wiring work, do you question the way they do it?
No.
Why?
Because I don't know anything about electrical work, so I have to trust that what they say is correct.
Cool.
Back to the Bitcoin
I asked, how she would feel if I had bought the two Bitcoin without telling and when it did go up, we would have had twice the total amount we had borrowed for the renovation - would she be happy, or upset?
Both, I would be happy to have the money, upset that you broke my trust.
Okay. Why did you say no?
Because I don't understand anything about it, there is risk, people say it is a scam...
So, I should have just bought it.
Why?
Because you don't trust me anyway.
What????
Well, I do know about these things, I do understand it, I do have experience with it. In this scenario, I am the electrician. But, you had resistance because you didn't understand and because you don't trust me, your default is to get your way pushed through, vetoing the option because for you it was too risky, regardless of what I thought. This wasn't a joint decision, you got your way and the only way I could have got mine, is to "break" your trust.
Note: I play dangerous conversation games for a currently married man.
But all of this was instigated by a conversation about perceived status and deferring decision-making to authority. When we don't know about something and we get the opinion of an expert, we build our own views based on what they say - and since we don't know whether it is correct or not, we will be more open to believe them. However, if we perceive ourselves as higher status than another, even if they are an expert, we are far less likely to value their opinion.
This led into a discussion about arrogance and I asked if I am arrogant in her eyes.
You can be.
(Lies!)
Note: sometimes perhaps.
But what is arrogance?
When someone thinks they are right most of the time.
Yes. But this needs further qualification in my opinion, because if they have a track-record of actually being right they are using themselves as the "expert opinion" in the same way others who don't know anything would defer their views to them, based on that same track-record.
Note: In some areas, I do likely come across as arrogant, but it is in areas that I have experience and understanding, as well as skin in the game. But, I am also quite happy to listen to opinions to consider too and, acknowledge openly when I don't know enough and would like more clarity.
It isn't arrogance to trust oneself if experienced in a topic, it is wisdom. It is only arrogance when a person thinks they are right about a topic that they have little to no experience with, invalidating their opinion totally. A lot of the internet discussions are like this, because people use information that supports their side of the story, but they don't actually have any direct experience with the topic at all. The most toxic form of "truthseeker" is like this, where they know the "truth" because they found it on the internet.
What if the "powers that be" planted that information for you to find?
Blah.. blah... I'm too clever to be tricked by the...
Arrogance.
Anyway...
All of this comes down to various kinds of power dynamics in relationships and it is interesting to note that in my own relationship, I have low status as my wife always gets her way, even when it is in things that are outside her wheelhouse and if under different circumstances, she would trust me.
This isn't me picking on my wife either by the way, nor complaining about her not trusting me - this is common in close relationships. For example, it doesn't matter if people pay me for these kinds of conversations IRL to help them improve their outcomes, at home - I am not perceived as a professional.
I don't always get my way! I compromise!
So, how come I wasn't able to buy one Bitcoin instead of two?
....
Now, I have talked about these things before and I am comfortable enough with myself that I can say that a lot of people trust me in some areas, but don't trust me in others. For example, at the same time in March 2020 when I bought that tiny amount of Bitcoin for my own birthday, a good friend of mine had sold an apartment, had a decent chunk of cash and asked what he should do. I said what I would do if I had that kind of money (which I did and it got vetoed) and I was unsure, use 10% (or more if comfortable) and buy the fucking dip!
He did not. Instead, he went to his "wealth advisor" at the bank and asked them. At the mention of Bitcoin, she broke out laughing at him and so, he invested it into something that lost 30% a week later and took a year to recover. His 10% would have paid off his current mortgage.
People are risk averse, but what makes something appear very risky is, not understanding what the opportunity is even about. As I said to my wife, if people had trusted, they would have been wealthy and all most of them would have put in, was a month or two of salary over a period of time they could afford. A very low barrier to entry, especially considering the upside potential.
But that is a lot of money for some people.
Not to these people. They buy TVs worth more than that.
But a TV is "something" they can touch. Bitcoin is volatile!
Yes. No risk with a TV or car - it is guaranteed to go down.
But, the real reason of this discussion was to pick on my wife build representative models of how our perception of someone's status (there are many sides to what creates this) as high or low in a topic or as a person in general, are going to affect our decisions. Having these models means we can use them as heuristics that can help us make better decisions in the future, rather than making the same blind mistakes over and over.
Knowing that when we see someone as higher status than ourselves we are more inclined to believe them means, being more cautious and making sure we do our own research. Knowing where our competencies lay, helps us trust ourselves into making wiser decisions and knowing when to bring in support. Understanding the strengths and boundaries of other's competencies helps us know when to trust enough to act on it and, when to take it with a grain of salt and research further, or get second opinions from a different source.
The fact is, no individual can be an expert on every topic and those that believe they are, are likely sorely mistaken - (and may also have narcissistic personality disorder). And because we are able to be influenced by people we consider to be influencers, we have to be cautious that we aren't deferring our opinion or activity to the opinion of an expert, but someone who is now outside of their domain of expertise.
Anyone can have one - but not all opinions are created equal.
In my opinion, a relationship should have a healthy dose of trust, but not blind trust. This isn't just about money matters, it is about all kinds of things - if something is important to a partner you want to spend the rest of your life in a healthy relationship with, learn to listen to them about that topic and trust they know enough for you to at least consider taking their advice or doing more research - rather than saying no, just because you aren't interested or don't understand what they are talking about - and it makes you uncomfortable.
There is always more to know, than what is already known.
I don't know much, but I know I love you...
Cheesy. This is why you are low-status in this relationship, Taraz.
Taraz
[ Gen1: Hive ]
Wow you play a dangerous game!
Either that or the power dynamics of your relationship are... non-standard. :D
Let's be honest though: you weren't allowed to buy Bitcoin because of how much money you 'lost' on Steem.
That was also primetime hostile takeover madness, did your wife know anything about the hostile takeover?
I feel like that has to play a factor.
$4000 BTC though.
Sounds like a distant dream.
It doesn't matter what I say - she doesn't listen anyway....
Not enough to warrant concern. She is pretty much "Wen rich?" on this ;D
It will be a missed opportunity that will haunt me, and be extension, my wife, as I will keep reminding her. "It is now worth our house... Now three houses.... A plane... We could have bought an NFL team...."
:)
lol and then one day you'll just forget about it and be like on look at that Hive spiked to $1000 today. Should we buy a small island?
If I keep this up, I will have to buy two islands - the second will part of the alimony.
Playing with fire in this one lol. I get it though, I’ve had some serious conversations with my wife about all this internet money, starting a bit after bitcoin started to break out and shoot up. I too had ample opportunity to buy 2 or 3 bitcoin but didn’t want to pull the trigger out of my own fear of spending that kind of money. That hindsight comment I made earlier… ya 20-20 (coincidence that it also applies to that year? Lol)
I started to go into more detail on some of the investments and things I’ve done with the money I accumulated on my own (entirely separate from our joint accounts so she wouldn’t get mad if it all went to shit hahaha) and it was a mixed bag but still better than I hoped. Now she asks every so often about the stuff and how things are going, some other small pieces of info so I’m appreciative that she’s taking an interest. I don’t push the envelope though and ask to risk big chunks of our life savings at this stage lol even if things moon, the days of 3k bitcoin are long gone sadly.
I think it is necessary to take an interest. For me at least, this is a pretty big part of my life that soaks up time and energy, plus it has the potential to fundamentally change our financial position - isn't that interesting enough? I think it should be far more interesting than most other things that we all might be spending our time on.
It is only sad looking back - if it was to drop back there in a year or two, most people wouldn't buy again. What if it goes to 2000?
It is very hard to go an agreement on a matter with a people who don't have enough information about that topics. Moreover some people are like penny wise pound foolish. They don't want to take risk and always try to use risk free profit. But there is no option to make a risk free profit without no arbitrage principle.
Anyway you wrote well.
Risk free profit - it is a funny thing to consider, isn't it? Useless to spend too much time on though :)
Sometimes we just have to accept lower status in a relationship to remain in that relationship. Somethings just are not worth taking the high road for, especially when it is speculating on the future. I know all of life is speculating on the future, but some speculations need to be set aside for today so we remain in a comfortable familial place.
I think as long as those in the relationship recognize the needs of others regardless of status, it can be okay. The risk is though, the "high status" person ends up getting ignored.
Yes that does happen, but if the high status person is happy in the relationship, and want to remain in the relationship, then they need to make allowances. Also I think it really depends on what the high status aspect is, because in some things one person may be higher than the other, yet in other aspects the other individual is the high status person, so it needs to be looked at as a balance mechanism. The scales are never going to be in equilibrium.
Yes, this is the case and, it is going to swing like a pendulum depending on so many factors. What I do believe though, is if one is too heavily reliant on the other, it can end up in a bad situation.
This post blew my mind! Very candid.
The Covid crash did turn out to be a fantastic buying opportunity. But the problem is that it was a leap of faith. The sell-off occurred across all markets because no one knew how long-lasting and deep a correction it would be. Everything bounced back quickly because central banks embarked on a monetary policy experiment the world had never seen before.
I wouldn't have gambled with more borrowed renovation money than I could afford to lose even if had known that the odds were 90% in favor of winning.
Your friend going to the wealth advisor and asking her about Bitcoin was a mistake. He should've known what she was going to say. Asking a wealth adviser at a fucking bank was equivalent to going online to seek out Charlie Munger's comments on Bitcoin. If he was unmarried and losing 10% of his equity on a home he just sold would have not put a marriage to a risk avoidant no coiner at risk then he really should've taken his chances because of the upside potential. If you're an unmarried man, you're better off taking chances anyway. That's the best way to make use of your time as an unattached man.
Thanks - it was fun to write - serious stuff, still though :)
It all is a leap of faith - but also there is calculated risk based on experience. i think anyone with some to spend, bought in.
I agree, but the 10% I was planning would have been possible to gain back over time from other areas and the loan was to last for a year or more of renovation work - I had time and two jobs on my side. Using the cash immediately wasn't a long-term risk - but it gave me opportunity.
He did - but he would have had to clear expenditures with his wife - she would be much less likely than mine to say yes :)
This is an interesting view and one I think I hold too - though I have been married a while now :)
Ah, your friend is chained to an even heavier ball than you, then? :D
Indeed, it seems that the risk was well calculated in your case. Loss recoverable but win substantial.
Definitely!
There is no way I will risk anything too heavy with my family involved - but this was calculated for sure.
A man always takes decision on the deep analysis of the product and their feature .He predicts the product will benifit more in long term But a women always use sixth sense apart from all analysis of related data of the product. She never easily caught in greediness and always walk carefully in the depth of the ocean. Thats why if we take any financial decision then always get adviced from atleast your wife🙂
While a generalization, I think this is part of the reason there are differences in risk assessment and therefore investment outcomes across men and women. Men will tend to be more risk taking, but they also analyze things on a different set of metrics for the most part. Yes - generalization, but still on average there is a correlation.
Oh just admit it. JJ does XD
I have called him an arrogant prat multiple times too
No. No doing your own research peon. You don't have the training or qualifications and couldn't possibly hope to understand all the intricacies and contexts. Shut up and trust
your bettersthe experts XDand you're not an expert in the thing that you know a lot about because you're known, I keep managing to have 3d arguments with a friend who doesn't do 3d at all but knows people that do and everything I do is apparently wrong
Ahhh oops x_x
That status thing is so blindingly obvious now that it's in writing.
This is funny :) I find this in many things and I likely do it too. I "might" argue with someone about their specialty, but it is more out of interest to learn and I also like to get pushback on what I might know. However, some people will discount what a person knows/does, just because they feel that they know more - regardless of them knowing very little other than headlines.
I told my wife - I have blockchain records detailing her "Great 2020 Bitcoin failure" ;D
I could cope with that. It's a lot harder when someone is telling you that something is absolute irrefutable undeniable 100% truth and then just giving you blank/pitying looks when you're telling them they're wrong XD
LoL! :D Perhaps I should have similarly immortalised J's crypto turnaround on the blockchain when it happened XD
unfortunately or perhaps fortunately for some, I'm not a casual slice of life blogger anymore
This sounds like me:-)
I honestly at the beginning of our journey was nervous about my husband wanting to buy some btc. Then later I found Steem/Hive platform and now I don’t argue with my husband about crypto anymore, but I want to be informed if he wants to invest some money into it.
It becomes part of the relationship, doesn't it? In some ways, investing as a couple it is like raising children together - have to discuss the approach and put on a (mostly) united front.
100% agree. Now I feel involved in something bigger then investment, and like you said, we discuss and plan together. More to talk about during our dates:-) I tell him about hive (he isn’t involved much here), he shares his hopes about btc. It’s all great 👍. I
My ten cents worth is that it is good to have one partner who is risk averse and another who is happy to take risks. That balance in important and if you can agree a percentage of salary and dollar cost average on Cryptocurrency, stocks etc.... That money is completely separate from the family savings. If you build enough up in that separate account to buy 2 bitcoins or a house or whatever, then great. However risking money that you can't afford to lose would always have alarm bells ringing for me. Sure, with hindsight on your side now, it would have worked out very well for you, but I can also see it from your wife's point of view.
Separate out the family/renovation/family holiday/etc money from the investment money and get her to agree that you make the decisions in that area due to your experience.
Also spare a thought for Laszlo Hanyecz and his €429,650,000 pizzas🤣🤣
Burn 🔥🔥🔥
It is the balance that is lacking at the moment :D
I can too, but it wasn't "that much of a risk" considering we are both working (I have two jobs myself) meaning that we would have been able to cover it - it just would have given us the lumpsum when we needed it.
I wonder if people donate to him - he started a revolution by proving trade was possible :)
Ok, I hear you, the balance is a must here and compromise on both sides. As you said in the original post, maybe buying 1 Bitcoin or even 0.5 of a Bitcoin could have been a nice compromise. Hopefully the next opportunity that you unearth will be given fairer consideration.
Hopefully he held onto some of it and is at least a Millionaire today. I'm sure he does receive donations every now anf then for innovation he helped to kickstart.
We are all entitled to our own opinion but the ones who take risk enjoys their actions later.
Or the consequences. I'd rather pay the consequences of my activity, than my passivity.
What a very valid point..
:)
Hey you are doing dangerious things in your marriage 😁 From my experience, I don't think that this is about trust. However, for woman, it is about controlling the partner.
Most of the women would like to be predominant in their relationship. They want to bring us over. I am against this. The two sides should have their freedom spaces in a relationship if they really trust each other. This is essential for a relationship.
So from a wifey point of view, maybe she trusted you but also wanted stability. Maybe, I misunderstand, but was that money for renovating a house? If so, then I would be hesitant to invest the money that we are supposed to be using to renovate a house with. I am comfortable investing what I don't mind losing and even what makes me uncomfortable by investing a little more than that. However, if you lost the money then no renovations? That would affect my judgment even if I trusted your expertise. Maybe I read all that wrong though.