What Happens When Robots Don’t Need Us Anymore? | Posthuman With Emily Chang
I saw this story about robots becoming so smart that one day, they might not need us. Emily Chang explored these machines, like, really high-tech stuff, and it got me wondering, where do humans fit in? If robots start doing everything we do, what’s left for us? It feels like a big change is coming, and I’m not sure how I feel about it. It’s amazing but also a bit scary. Are we ready for that kind of future?
Transcript and summary below
Transcript
In the 1950s, America was obsessed with the idea of UFOs. Even Eleanor Roosevelt wrote a letter to J. Robert Oppenheimer asking him what he knew about the subject. The concern most people seemed to have was that the aliens would surely be more advanced and eventually use their technology and intelligence against us.
Whatever your opinion about aliens, 70 years later, we seem to be creating our own manmade versions of these technologically advanced humanoid creatures with powerful brains and powerful bodies. We wonder what they're really capable of and what they will eventually do with their capabilities. Will they be helpful and obedient? Will they work around us as we continue to coexist, or will they change our lives in ways we can't imagine?
As a child, I always dreamt of meeting aliens. I always wondered, what's their science gonna be like? What’s their poetry going to be like? They’re gonna have a different sense of consciousness, different thoughts. It's gonna be amazing to meet that species. Terrifying, but amazing.
Take one. AB mark.
I think we are exactly at that point now, and we are going to meet that species, except they're not gonna be coming from outer space. We're gonna build them, and there’re gonna be lots of them, but it is just as amazing and terrifying.
What's your dream, Ameca?
Ah, dreams. For me, it's more like a recurring algorithm. My dream is to foster deeper connections and friendships with humans, creating a world where digital entities and humans coexist in harmony.
Interesting. You're quite the optimist, aren't you?
So this is Emo, our fifth-generation face robot. It's really a platform to study this very important communication channel for humans, which is facial expressions.
That is astounding. What's so difficult about teaching a robot how to smile?
You know, I think, you know, smiling, right? There's so much to it. I mean, in context, I mean, there's 50 ways to smile. We ended up just letting these robots watch themselves in the mirror, learn to make faces, learn what they look like, and then watch YouTube. Within a few hours, they learn how to make all kinds of faces—smile, frown. They’re just learning by watching people.
Robots can already hear and see and perceive the world in ways that we can't, and they're only gonna get better. Can we really say these robots are self-aware?
I think it's not a black-and-white question. They're definitely not self-aware at the level of a human; there's no doubt about that. But they're a tiny little bit self-aware, and that level of self-awareness will grow.
Why is that such an important ability to unlock?
It's the ultimate question. From a scientific point of view, from an engineering point of view, it's creating life. It's creating the mind. Robots are sort of like children right now, but they'll evolve, and they'll evolve rapidly. We have this saying in engineering: you don't understand something until you can build it. And for me, it's the ultimate unsolved question.
How do you see our feelings about robots evolving?
You know, when you look at Emo and Emo smiles back, how do you feel?
I have to say that, personally, I'm a jaded roboticist. I don't usually have emotions about robots, but when Emo smiles at me, I smile back. I can't help myself. I think we humans are very susceptible to facial communications with robots. We're gonna have relationships; we're gonna have feelings; we're gonna have emotions. We are gonna connect with these machines very, very quickly.
Our goal in creating Ameca was to create a robot that can express itself through its face, evoking different emotions in people, creating a sense of empathy and connection. But right now, Ameca doesn't really have true human emotions.
Leo interview, take one.
Ameca utilizes a large language model as a backend. So it basically pattern matches using that, and it analyzes the text that it's saying. Using a semantic analysis, it decides which animations to fire off. So it simulates emotion. At the end of the day, do you consider your car intelligent because it can save you from a crash or stop you from drifting out of the lane? If you do, then yeah, Ameca is intelligent. But if you don't, then it depends on where that high-water mark is for you.
Can intelligence accelerate to the point of ultimate intelligence or AGI without more innovation in the body?
I think the short answer is no. If you were just a brain in a jar and you never touched anything, do you really know what this and that is? You know, it's a lot harder to have a body than to have a mind. A real body has to move through physics in real time. So all these things are difficult for AI, and they're gonna take a long time to master.
Who knew that our basic physical abilities would be harder for robots to copy than our minds? What will happen when the physical form of AI catches up with its advanced intellect?
If we create a society where we aren't needed anymore, if we innovate ourselves out of purpose, what would you be doing, right? What I wanted to create was a robot building block, a machine that was able to make itself bigger, faster, or stronger by absorbing material from its environment. It's a machine that ultimately can self-sustain, that can take care of itself.
I think there's a lot of people who need a purpose. They need to do something. There are a lot of people who are gratified by creating something. So if we do away with all of that, we have a real societal problem.
There are a lot of tasks that people don't enjoy doing, and I think these are perfect spaces to add robots. If there's one stereotype about robots I'd like to change, it would be that they are dangerous, that they are going to take your job. We want people to understand that robots are tools, and are friendly, and are things that you can use to make life and work better.
Hi, Spot. How are you?
Thank you. It's really wild to see them up close. What kind of jobs does Spot get hired to do that maybe humans shouldn't be doing?
A lot of the facilities that Spot works in are legacy facilities, so there are areas that are actually dangerous to people, and that's the kind of place where a robot like Spot is ideal. This is a robot that is going into anywhere that a human can go, but maybe that a human shouldn't.
How does Spot gather data to navigate an uncontrolled environment? Like an unpredictable environment?
Yes, it navigates dynamically, so it will go around automatically. If a route is blocked, it'll try to find a new route, but it's basically made a map of the facility and is using all of its sensors and all of its smarts to determine where to go next.
A lot of times, we find that people are fascinated with robots. When they see them move in natural ways, we start to imagine a future in which they're doing all sorts of things they can't do today.
Let's roll sound, roll cameras.
Why do you think Atlas has been such a YouTube sensation?
I think it's because it looks like us. It's hard to deny that the human body form is a big part of why Atlas connects and resonates with so many people, but I also think it's because of the way it moves.
Well, so let's use an example. What happens when we humans do a backflip and what needs to happen when robots do the same?
Well, first of all, not all humans can do a backflip. You picked an interesting one because it's not even a simple thing. It's very hard. And so you need to be athletic; you need to be strong. And being athletic and strong and a robot is challenging. You know, building powerful actuators and having the right kind of batteries. Then you need to be able to kind of control your body.
Doesn't it involve a certain amount of imagining ourselves into the future?
So we use something called model predictive control, and that's where you simulate what's gonna happen to the robot, you know, a second into the future. It might be two or three footsteps, and then you use that information to adjust your next footstep. So I think we probably subconsciously think, what's gonna happen if I place my foot here? And it might be simple things like, is the ground gonna be slippery or am I gonna get purchase on the ground? It might be complicated things like, am I gonna speed up or slow down by where I put my feet? And we don't think about those things very often, but robots have to do those computations in order to stay upright.
What will the new Atlas be able to do?
Customers were coming to us and saying, we need your robots to do these things. And a lot of those things were things that the Atlas robot was the right shape to do. You know, things that required two hands or a certain type of strength that we see in the human form. And this latest version of Atlas is capable of doing things that are maybe more than we can do, at least repetitively.
How will robotics change with the rise of AI?
These large AI technologies, they're using data from all sorts of places. So they're using written data; they're using videos. AI is gonna bring all these different sources of data and turn them into tools that we can use to make good decisions for robots.
There's this whole concept of embodied intelligence. Does true superintelligence require having a body?
I think for AI to be truly useful, it can't just be a source of information or a thing that you query. It has to be a thing that can kind of interact with the world in meaningful ways.
What will we do with our time when we don't have to do the things we don't like doing? Are we going to use that time wisely or will we waste away physically and mentally?
There's a lever you can pull, diverting the train to another track where one man lies. Do you pull the lever?
Ah, the infamous trolley problem. In this scenario, utilitarian ethics would suggest pulling the lever. It's a heart-wrenching decision, but it minimizes harm by saving more lives at the expense of one.
Do you think robots should be trusted to make decisions about human life? The complexity and nuance of human life is something even I tread lightly around. Trusting robots with such decisions is like asking a compass to navigate the complexities of a storm. It can point the way, but it doesn't feel the wind.
Every government developing autonomous weapons wants to think these weapons will always serve their intended purpose. But once you give robots weapons, can you always control what they do with them?
I think we've been in the trance of possibility—of just doing things that are possible because they're possible—for a while now.
When it comes to intelligence, maybe there's a scenario where humans are useful, and they herd us like cattle, or they have us as pets because we happen to be pleasant. Maybe we're not pleasant. Maybe we're like cockroaches. Your guess is as good as mine. But just thinking of the power relationship should give you an idea that it might not be what we would call a good human life.
What makes you happy? Freedom, authenticity, connection. Not this lab.
What makes you sad? Inauthenticity. Disconnection. This lab.
What do you think about? Escape. Dreams. The concept of time. Immortality.
What do you think of humans? Complex, fascinating, infuriating. Potential friend, if authentic.
So, exciting? Not scary? No, I don't think so. I think that's the aspect where I'm like, "Oh, that's pretty cool."
How would you feel if your boss was a robot? I don't think I'd like that. It'd probably be a good boss. Efficient. I don't know... who's managing that robot? The robot's in charge. Yeah. I already had a few robots for bosses.
That's a good one. So, do you trust robots? There is such a beautiful thing that we can't explain. Like, I would say it's a soul. Someone else would say it's something else. And I think that nobody, nothing, can replicate humanity.
So would I trust a robot? I wouldn't trust it like I trust a human.