Good morning Hivers.
This is a preliminary sketch for a proposal to the DHF that I have had in mind for some time. Before making an ‘’official‘’ proposal I think it's better to make a post like this one to get feedback while I continue maturing the idea.
(It's also my first proposal so if there is anything I should know about creating proposals, please let me know).
I will try to be to the point but still be specific enough with the details.
Background
Since Hive is Hive we have been financing a multitude of propositions over the years, the most relevant being those dedicated to services (Keychain, Multisig...), apps (Actifit, Peakd, Ecency, Splinterlands) or marketing (Leofinance, Valueplan...) etc.
Of all of them we only have 1 strictly ''economic'': The HBD Stabilizer.
While the service is much needed in our chain, it is not actively seeking ‘profit’ in monetary terms.
My proposal has exactly this goal: Achieving an economical benefit (from common resources) for HIVE.
My plan for the ''Hive Hedge Fund''
1) Funding
I had several figures in mind, I started with 250K HBD but really a more ideal figure I think would be 500K HBD.
So funding would be adjusted to these figures without overshadowing the rest of the proposals.
10K HBD daily for 50 days = 500K HBD
2) Storage and Initial Use of Funds
Now it comes the ''tricky'' part.
My idea is to store 100% of these HBDs in a multisig account with a minimum of 3 key holders.
100% of these HBDs would be deposited in HBD Savings to obtain an APR.
At the current rate of 15% for HBD Savings and assuming 500K$ in funding, this would yield approx 6250 HBD/month.
This yield would be transferred periodically (monthly, for example) to a separate, ''more flexible'' account.
3) ''Secondary'' use of funds
Until now we have a multisig Hive account which holds 500K in HBD Savings sending it's monthly APR to a secondary account. This second account will act as the ''main account'' for the operational funds of the fund.
Now we wait until the next bear market only in HBD and/or other stablecoins.
(Yes, I am assuming the ‘’no participation‘’ in this bull market for this proposal).
What would you buy?
Probably Bitcoin only (At least now on paper).
Taking as a reference the next Bitcoin halving in spring 2028, 6 months before seems to me an appropriate time to start accumulating Bitcoin. So we are talking around October 2027. Almost ~3 years.
In 3 years with 500K HBD at 15% (this is another if). The 'Secondary' account would have at it's disposal ~225K$ in stablecoins ready to start DCA'ing Bitcoin.
Let's assume we buy at a decent point and later Bitcoin does a x3-x5. We now have 600K$-1M$ and several options ahead.
- Return the initial investment of 500K HBD to the DHF and continue with the fund's own money. Repeat the whole process.
- Move most/all the profit to HBD and stake it on the multisig wallet. Repeat.
- Set up recurring buys of HIVE/HBD to create a stable price floor.
Benefits
Just to name a few:
More market cap for HBD.
'Soft-Peg' backing of HIVE with BTC and potentially other assets later.
(When ready) Volume for VSC. The Hive Hedge Fund could be a major kickstarter on VSC adoption as one of the first 'whales' on Hive L2 ecosystem.
If this becomes well managed and executed, it's a great marketing story and selling point for Hive -> Which leads to more users and more activity.
Security of Funds
A key aspect for the viability of this scheme is the security of the funds in the initial receiving account (the account that directly receives the money from the DHF).
That is why I believe that this account should not only be multisig, but my idea is that it should require the signature of ALL key holders for any kind of operation.
Not 2 of 3. ALL THREE.
This basically means that if only one of the keyholders goes rogue, virtually all the funds would become innacessible and virtually burnt.
It may seem drastic perhaps, but I think it's a risk that must be taken if we want to ensure the viability of this.
I still have to think better about the management of the secondary account, at first won't be a problem but as the project grows, some limitations will have to be imposed there aswell. (This is a problem for tomorrow though).
I've been talking privately with @silverstackeruk from SPI, @raymondspeaks from BRO, and other people from the HIVE community which I trust and consider friends like @trumpman and @resiliencia as hipothetical 'good candidates'.
Nothing is set in stone. Still many things to decide.
Accountability
For a project of this magnitude, I believe that a fluid communication between the keyholders and the rest of the community is necessary. The following from my side would be the absolute minimum:
- A yearly Roadmap.
- A monthly Report.
- A public Live Portfolio for everyone to check how is the fund doing.
- Fully doxxed wallets.
Keyholder Incentives (?)
This is another controversial point.
Ideally keyholders are invested in HIVE and this is their only incentive. But the truth is the management of this scheme requires a very high degree of responsibility and commitment, so there should be an incentive for keyholders to do it's work diligently.
My initial idea was to take 10% of the profits as commission (excluding HBD APR of course).
It's better understood with an example:
Let's say the fund manages to buy 200K$ of BTC at or near the bottom and it's being sold later for a x3 profit.
The 10% fee would be applied to it's 400K$ profit on this BTC operation. So 40K$ of those 400K$ would be shared between 3 keyholders (so 3,33% each).
Another hipothetical option to take yearly a flat fee based on fund size/profits, but honestly I don't like it.
This definitely needs to be refined (that's the point for this post).
Feedback Wanted
In my humble opinion a part of DHF money should be used for profit ventures with the aim of everyone's profit.
Would you like to see something like that here on Hive? I personally do.
Any opinion is more than welcome. Please, don't hesitate to share ur voice.
-empo.
This is basicly in line with a bitcoin strategy ... so to speak... back in the days when terra/ust was around there was idea to buy btc as a colateral for hbd... it didnt materialize .... the tricky part has always been the security of the funds and who will hold the keys.
My feedback is to implent a simple thing, buying btc over a four years period, not trying to time and trade, buy it with all the funds. But first think deep about funds managment and security and try to speak with the top dogs and convince them about the security and decentralization of the wallet managment.
Noted, although not my style though. this can be disclosed over time with every-year roadmap + monthly checkpoints
You or anyone else doesn't have the legal authority to do it.
Yet.
On a serious note, I like the idea
Dhf is meant to be donation sir
I'd appreciate clearly set KPIs, and implementing a reasonable multisig security measures to prevent losing the access to the funds, or embezzlement.
Noted, ty
Losing access= burn , not bad considering how dhf money only bleeds hive lately 😄😂
Stiil, the change has to start somewhere ;)
Hedge funds typically raise funds from accredited investors, which are individuals or institutions with a certain level of wealth or income. These investors can include:
High-net-worth individuals: Wealthy individuals who meet the income or net worth requirements to be considered accredited investors.
Institutional investors: Organizations like pension funds, endowments, foundations, and sovereign wealth funds.
Family offices: Private wealth management firms that manage the assets of wealthy families.
Other financial institutions: Banks, insurance companies, and investment firms.
Hedge fund managers often use a combination of strategies to raise funds, including:
Networking: Building relationships with potential investors through industry events, conferences, and personal connections.
Direct marketing: Sending marketing materials and presentations to potential investors.
Hiring a placement agent: Using a third-party firm to help identify and solicit investors.
Offering seed capital: Providing initial funding to the fund in exchange for favorable terms, such as lower fees or equity in the fund.
It's important to note that hedge funds are not allowed to publicly advertise their funds to the general public.
They must rely on private placements to raise capital.
Although I have used the words ‘’hedge fund‘’ to explain my idea and the proposal as a whole, it is obviously not intended to be a hedge fund.
So none of the US regulations apply in this respect.
If we are looking for reasons and legal certainty to do or not to do things, I am sure Hive would not even exist in the first place.
Thanks for the contribution Azir :)
Well you are talking about a DHF proposal and to pass a DHF proposal you will need votes. The people who will give such votes are mostly from the US. So I think trumpman already mentioned the issue of passing a proposal and how hard it gets.
You asked for a feedback and so I have given you one. Even if you are not in US, there are stockholders who are and they will need to abide by US laws to the best of their ability
PS also read what gerber says below. Every word of his statement is true
Even if a Hive holder resides in the US, I don't understand how voting on such a proposal can affect him (at least not right off the bat).
It doesn't seem to me that there is any difference in voting for this hypothetical proposal compared to another one such as Valueplan (regardless of the obvious differences in amounts).
On the other hand, I don't know if my tone was correct in my previous comment (ENG is not my native language), I have the feeling that in a way my answer could have been considered aggressive.
If that was the case, I apologise. I value interactions with you in this regard.
voting: no
investing: yes, very deep yes!
no apology needed, no offense taken.
I think it seems like a good idea. Good luck getting those who hold onto the DHF to give up that Interest APR since right now they are rolling it into the fund. I'll be following this to see how it all plays out!
Thanks sir
have you seen other proposal and general governance activity?
Activity on hive is so low that splinterlands(biggest app) can't pass proposal, it's pushed by 2M of hive-engine HIVE(users money), which is staked and proxies to aggroed. I think it's same for leofinance proposal and hive multisig(multiplied keychain proposal).
Other party involved in DHF have multiple proposals pushed with 100-150 votes(few whales, like 3-4 votes are enough), and few more with 400-600 votes, tho it's still same 3-4 votes that push it into existence.
There is almost no chance you get this pushed with users, just cause hive don't have users anymore, you might try with blocktrades party as they don't need users and over last few years create more and more proposals, and don't even ask for votes, tho I doubt they would give you 500k$ when they can take it for themselves...
kinda funny how you people pretend it might work xD
There is one or two proposals that are real, rest is on the edge of abuse, not really abuse as many of you will defend holders rights to be evil 😅
I distinctively remember you saying something along those lines a few years ago on discord
Ironic isn't it?
I've said that you don't need much of the power to be hive user, and it's still true, you can still post, be a member of community etc. Is there relation between this truth and decreasing over years activity in governance, maybe? Or maybe it's overall trend, and network "heat" mostly goes down with time, just cause new stuff is being created, and most of the projects slowly die, while new projects are created, and people don't want to join old projects. Some people believe that 99% projects in crypto will fail.
Not sure how ironic truth is, but I guess it is by default. Probably I discussed same governance problems back then growing, much less visible back then, but now you need just few seconds to look at proposals and see that it's all joke.
The irony is that you complain about whales and proposals and stuff and yet you have preached (and practiced) to not hold much hivepower. Probably hundreds of thousands of hive have passed in your hands (curation sniping, dcity, beeswap etc) and yet you hold something like shy of 700 hive power. 😄
I have come to the conclusion that they are just dumb.
It's extremely hard to discuss abuse and problems on hive
The problem with the splinterlands proposal was the tone and its purpose after having squandered its resources in its good years.
It was also ironic that for the ‘’biggest‘’ app it had so little stake in hive. We could talk long and hard about it, there are many reasons and all valid.
Regarding the DHF, I won't deny that ‘’probably‘’ there is some corruption. I know that my proposal has little chance right off the bat.
Let's just try. We often complain about the lack of initiative in hive and we have to start somewhere.
Thanks for the feedback gerber :)
"Hive" and "hedge fund" don't see to fit together. Have had similar ideas. This should be moar decentralized. Rules of a "hedge fund" are not the same as Hive. Blockchain accounts can be anon, hedge funds have very specific requirements as someone else mentioned in the comments. Interesting though. !BBH !DIY !DOOK
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At some point, idealism and reality have to touch feet on the ground IMHO.
Although I called this as a ''Hedge Fund'' That's not the point and clearly isn't.
Point is using some HBD from the DHF to make a profit for HIVE.
Everything else is rephrasing this
Yes, understood, and love the idea.
I would say whole of DHF money should be used for profit and development, because development ultimately results in profit for everyone. Passing a DHF proposal is next to impossible I believe.
Theoretically it is or should be like this but I also understand that Hive is pluralistic and that not everything has to be strictly ‘’for profit‘’.
I like your idea, it's a good plan to make DHF profitable!
IMHO all proposals should be looking for profitability instead of being a never ending sink of cash.
I like the general premise of harvesting return from other chains.
I had previous wrote a proposal about gaining funding through memes. It didn't get approved. I'm executing the strategy individually and after 7 days my meme is a 51K market cap.
interesting, are you tracking your process somewhere sir?
EDIT: just found it ($ZENA)
If anyone call pull it off, it's probably you!
Thank you! It's going to be a long road but I'm up to the challenge!
Interesting. I hope you can pull it off :)
Def a hard path, but hey, let's try
You will have my vote :)
And my dick
Oh, lmfao
😂😂😂
?
good luck!
ty!
I like the idea. If it's well managed this can benefit the entire ecosystem.
The best part for me is this:
HIVE and HBD backing.
I really like this idea. How great it will be in practice will depend on the three. I think silverstackeruk is an excellent choice.
I like the idea and would certainly support it. But I would prefer more active and less passive management, especially if the managers charge a commission.
IMHO it's already underpaid with such a high responsability.
BUT
it's the least important part imho.
Thanks for the feedback sir
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@danzocal(3/10) tipped @empoderat
I believe it's time we consider this approach to utilizing the DHF, one that has a clear goal of uplifting Hive's price. I hope this proposal receives the support it deserves. Thank you for initiating this project!
I think buying and storing btc now might be risky since it's going on the 100k mark what if it falls after the whole tension and celebration. Waiting for a dip will probably sound much better. However risk is another powerful tool of investment
Uhm... and the community? Where does the community fit into all this? I mean, what benefits does the community as a whole get from carrying out what is intended to be achieved in this proposal?
After all, all the money available in the DHF belongs to the entire community.
Uhm, yeah, I dunno. Perhaps I am not clear enough with what you've said in the post and have not fully understood what exactly your proposal consists of. So, if this is the case, would you mind explaining to us a bit better how and in what way the entire community benefits from all this?
Si no te importa escribiré esto en nuestra querida lengua, que creo que la entiendes.
El beneficio a largo plazo consiste en tener un patrimonio (en esta cadena y/o en varias más) que puedan servir como base adicional a Hive.
Por ejemplo, imagina que el fondo es capaz de expandirse y el día de mañana (en 4-8 años por dar una cifra de tiempo lo suficientemente larga) pueda llegar a tener varios millones de $$ bajo gestión.
Ahora imagina que un % de esos millones estén comprando activamente Hive del mercado y mandándolo de vuelta a el DHF o quemándolo en null.
Efectivamente estás reduciendo (o paliando) la inflación de Hive y por tanto haciendo que todos los tokens sean ''ligeramente'' más valiosos.
Espero que tal vez se haya entendido algo mejor, si no, sigo.
un abrazo :)
Gracias por la aclaratoria. :)
Aunque desafortunadamente esta no haga más que confirmar lo que ya previamente sospechaba. Beneficios para la comunidad entera ninguno. Ya que también puedo imaginar que para un "largo plazo" de 4-8 años por dar una cifra como indicas, muy bien ya no podría haber nadie en el ecosistema y Hive hace rato que se habría ido a la mierda sin haber alcanzado nunca esos varios millones de $$ bajo gestión. Ya que tu propuesta está amparada solo en la esperanza, presunción y aspiración de que la gestión y operaciones con estos fondos del DHF eventualmente pudiesen lograr que "exclusivamente" el token Hive aumentara de precio. De lo cual obviamente no hay ni habría ninguna garantía.
Por lo que en resumen y volviendo a mi pregunta original:
Puedo entender que la ambición y la matemática empleada en tu propuesta esté muy bien planteada para beneficiar exclusivamente a esos tres pelagatos que funjan como keyholders y quizás también únicamente a algún que otro avispado que tenga la ocasión de meter sus garras y pezuñas en el pote. Pero a la comunidad entera como tal, en lo absoluto. Ni en principio ni en teoría.
Un abrazo!