I'm sure many of you have heard the abbreviation KE lately and like many other things it's a great tool to evaluate a hive account in different ways, however - and I've made a post or comments in the past mentioning this - it shouldn't be taken at face value every time.
@friendlymoose made a post recently that went over a lot of things well and one of the my takes from it and from some discussions on the Hive Discord server is that front-ends should make it easy for stakeholders and curators alike to provide them with the insight of certain analytics easily. KE could be one of them.
Another one to add to it could be comment to post ratio, at face value this also may not mean much and even if it looks "healthy" an account could still just be commenting "nice post" or "!turdtoken" 10 times per day or just saying "thanks" to comments they receive while not giving a shit to consume and engage with other authors.
Another tool could be to show how many votes they send off and how many unique accounts they touch, I checked and hivetasks has this indicator actually:
Voting CSI 50.5 ( 1.31 % self, 485 upvotes, 251 accounts, last 7d )
(I've self-voted twice this week at face value, but if you checked which comments/posts you'd notice I don't accept any rewards)
All of these tools would be great if the front-end could bundle up and easily showcase for each account you're looking at at any given time as it'd help you out to determine how valuable and contributing accounts are to Hive but as I said even just looking at these numbers it won't always tell the full story so you may still have to do a little bit more looking to determine how things really stand.
Just because a user is powering down everything does not make them a "parasite".
Hive is about rewarding people for their activity and contributions, things we deem to bring value to the chain in different forms as they affect others and may keep people here based on their actions in different ways.
Hive is supposed to make things easy for regular users who aren't traders, investors or generally well off in their day to day, it's no surprise that majority of users on hive come from developing countries because the rewards they can earn here affects their day to day in a big way. That's not a weakness of Hive, even if that sell pressure may cause wilder swings and crazier dips during market downtrends, it's one of its strengths.
The important thing is what these users are contributing, are the rewards they are earning, whether they sell everything or not, comparable to their contributions. I know many users I'd say yes on, but also many I'd say no and that's not always the users fault either, often times it could be the voters overdoing it or not judging them on certain criteria before curating if they're curating to begin with.
Lastly, we don't know what people are going through in their personal life, that's one of the few things that isn't always transparently public on the chain and that's fine that way. Thus judging people based on selling stake at low prices or for long durations isn't the right thing to do in my opinion if they also contribute in many ways many would deem valuable. If certain posts are overrewarded then downvote them for that, don't make it about what they've done with the rewards. Many of us here are bullish hive and even the sellers may be so they'll be the ones losing out the most and in regret when things eventually turn around.
That said there may also be users who barely contribute much and then on top of it earn a lot and constantly sell, for that I have no excuses - I just think it'd be important to tread lightly to not judge everyone based on a couple metrics alone cause that then becomes a bad user experience for many involved.
KE is just a metric. It tells people how the user or accounts treats the rewards they have got. It doesn't tell that the person is bad or good, right or wrong, or being a parasite.
As KE helps other see how that accounts treat the rewards, it's all back to everyone themselves to judge what kind of user he/she is.
If I see some people have KE > 30, and everymonth they withdraw their HIVE to binance or other exchange, and they make multiple power down every year consistently... They are not a good or bad people, they are just human, people...
However for me, regardless what happen in their personal life, if they do that consistently for years, I believe those people only take HIVE as income generating machine, and their commitment for long term contribution are only about getting guarantee (by having some good image and backing) so they can keep squeezing income from HIVE.
whether they are bad, or good, or being "parasite" or "angel", it's up to each of us to judge. None is absolute here.
Anyway I might be wrong, it's just my 2 cents
imo, I never viewed the people as Good/Bad... it is only whether or not they have a Good/Bad long term investment in Hive.
Low KE = Good LTI
High KE = Bad LTI
That's just my viewpoint though, I know everyone will have a different take on it :)
All the !spambot comments are indeed a red flag to me, as they are more visible than if a person consistently withdraws everything they earn.
Showing CSI ratio alongside reputation, and perhaps KE ratio would be cool though :)
I think it's so important to understand that we are all not at the exact same stages in life, just because a person is powering down/withdrawing from hive does not mean that person is farming rewards, quitting the platform, not bringing value to the platform, etc.
Also the KE rating doesn't account for Hive/HBD that is sent to and used in Hive-Engine, which is still a big part of our ecosystem.
!BBH
Merely a tool... but a good starting point to evaluate someones commitment/contribution to Hive :)
You should give yourself a Green Tie for this Bull Market :P
This sentence is really true and important to remember.
I think there are some important points about this topic:
First, I totally agree that a person who only knows how to "suck" rewards and take them from the community is something very bad and unsustainable for the ecosystem.
Second, I think that second layer tokens should be included in the KE calculation, because for example we have splinterlands (SPS/DEC), holozing (ZING), and other tokens that move the hive and somehow add value to the network. For example, the person uses the rewards from their post to buy something they are playing, etc. From my point of view, it is not wrong, because they did not necessarily make a "withdrawal of funds" but rather a "reallocation".
I found this post to be a very sensible point of view, especially when you mention that no one knows what another person is going through in their personal life and the reasons that led them to take some action. I really think that the key word in this post was that we all have our desires, wishes and choices, but that if we think about community, the balance between our desires and reality is necessary.
Glad that someone has a much better opinion and reflections on this contrary to the popular opinion. I will power up all once I get a job. I also believe that in time, we should create more owners, not just users. I will become that at some point in time, and that too in 2025.
To be honest for me personally even though small earnings like (20-25 USD per month) worth of tokens per month, this has been a lifeline for me. And a strong emotion is attached to this ecosystem.
What comes from people must go back to them
This is what my philosophy is. And I will contribute financially too to this ecosystem.
Actually, the question of people selling the earned tokens will not even come to fore if we have a much greater adoption and penetration rate because that will automatically offset these things with strong demand.
The real challenge is something else- what parameters make a user a good player in this ecosystem and whether people comply with it to become an upstanding citizen or pretend to comply with it.
The process is more important. That said, our real-life challenges may drive us to make some money for survival. So, the threshold level of behaviour and act is still a work in progress in this ecosystem.
Thank you.
Sure KE is limited like anything else that is an easy to automate metric, but I must tell you it is SUPER effective in evaluating who are the Splinterlands contest exploit masters :)
Sure, it would be nice if it took into account SPS and other second layer tokens, but as is it really measures what your behavior is towards Hive. If your KE is at 2.0 it means that you took at least 50% of your Hive rewards and put it somewhere else. That somewhere else could still be on Hive like HBD savings, or it can be in Splinterlands or Holozing assets. Those things you should also evaluate when investigating what someone is doing on Hive.
Then there is an aspect of we need more popularity for Hive and it is not a bad thing to sponsor some great authors who will just extract. If content is outstanding it might be worth it to us as Hive stake holders to overlook their extraction behaviors and just reward them for other benefits these people bring to Hive. The judgement becomes more subjective and less clear or easy to make compared to the cut and dry KE metric.
Well I read it and read it again, because my account is mentioned, is being in the top 250, in this instance good or bad? and I haven't a clue what the standing means nor the %ages. next to the names. It is all way to complicated to an old guy who would prefer to use a slide rule and a log book !
You youngsters and your code and programmes and stuff is beyond me.
Pick up camera
Post snaps
Reply to "genuine" comments
Scroll though accounts read upvote and comment if I enjoy
Food
Beer
Bed
Rinse and repeat
oh the screenshot just shows who I've voted the last 7 days, amount of times and value
Ah, gotcha, I think LOL
Thanks for the votes as well much appreciated
What about Bourbon... and Scotch?
JD and coke , yup that'll do
Scotch i fucking hate that stuff,
I love this post - as someone who has struggled to help people understand that BMI is actually an important metric... BUT NOT THE ONLY DECIDING FACTOR...
I totally get this post and I love it!
KE is a great tool, just like BMI to give a "Flow Chart Like" series of queries...
Is KE < 3? Yes, high probability not a "parasite" and offloading all Rewards...
Is KE < 4 No, ok... Check to see Rewards/Comments/Posts/ vs PUP/PUD... etc, etc...
I love this post and my only regret is not having a higher upvote value at this time!
Greetings, how can I know my KE and that of others?
https://beebalanced.streamlit.app/
Type in any username and see for yourself
Gracias muy amable
Thank you very much
Am not a fan of comments that don’t bring value. Just yesterday I made a post with the tittle that getting good comments from people is a hard job. Hive amidst all others is a social media platform therefore quality engagement is key. Am an advocate for that.
On the other issue, our problems are different just as our faces are, we never know what the others are going through and should be able to use what is theirs to sort out life challenges.
On a newbie front…please what is KE?
I love Hivestats, they've helped motivate me many times.
We can definitely use more information about accounts we want to reward too. I've seen many third world members start out only interested in selling only to realize that they can build a good life and savings here.
KE isn't a tool to be used alone, and all the defenders agree with that. But it is a flag. One of many. I think the best way is going through something that projects like @apis.hive project are considering. A multi-parameter assessment in which KE is one of the attributes. But for sure every case/case needs to be investigated.
I'm glad to hear that you are in some way in tune with what I said there in that friendlymoose post.
Very good point about not judging sellers too quick man. Some people probably needed the money anyways. It's way better to focus on spammy comments like nice post, those ones hurt the chain more than cashing out does. We need value in the chain
But since there are new accounts that do that every now and then, you do have to manage that.You could filter out comments that have a certain length. I'm doing that with a HiveSQL script for my @topcomment curation. Then you still have the accounts that have automated template replies which are long as well. I've excluded these accounts manually.
Maybe you could make a few indicators next to the rep score. For instance by using traffic light icons.
Not replying to comments on own posts --> Red
Good comment to post ratio --> Green
The more green, the better!
by the way: I designed KE to study behavior. I can demonstrate that there is a distinct difference in behavior if the KE of one account is 0.6 vs the one with 81 (both account holds 1000 HP). It is that difference I am after, and it is clear as daylight.
https://peakd.com/hive-133987/@azircon/governing-dynamics-20
what if your comments are AI generated.
I DV multiple hive accounts for that.
True.
I've seen quite some AI comments too indeed 😐
That is why we manually check comments we upvote with @topcomment.
I think this is important. I know there are some users here that treat power downs or hive withdrawals as all important when upvoting somebody. However, there are other ways to contribute, quality content being perhaps the most important. It doesn't seem like we should be potentially pushing away good content producers just because they need or want to actually spend what they earn. I mean you aren't really earning anything if you can never exchange the earnings for goods and services.
Thus judging people based on selling stake at low prices or for long durations isn't the right thing to do in my opinion if they also contribute in many ways many would deem valuableHive is a blessing for people living in third-world countries, where the economy is crumbling. Without their hive account, it is very easy to fall into depression due to the high unemployment rate and low wages... most people want to power up and all but responsibilities and hunger make it hard but many are still trying to fit in the status quo.
KE rate is weird tough because last time I check it was like 1,7-1,9 for me and the only thing I extracted is 6 hbd to try v4vapp, seems quite heavy lol otherwise I just bought some spl assets and the holozing vial, I wouldn't call that extraction as you are investing in the ecosystem
are you crazy? your ke is 0.64 lol ! you inverted the ratio probably lol you have 4k HP and 2k rewards
Must have dropped when I started stake redditposh rewards as they are not author rewards but transfers... Before it was like 1,7-1,9 tough
well the ratio is generally clear … you currently have 2729 hive rewards… to be 1.7 you would need a stake of 1629 hp! That means 1000 of hive that gone somewhere! Unless you used to buy lots of L2 tokens or nfts or you misread it or you misreas it
I did buy quite a lot of sps, not 1000 hive tough, maybe 500... Maybe it was 1,4 then? Stuff of months ago
Lol 😹 but ke 1.7 isnt considered bad as well… big guys start to complain when it is 3 or more
I still think it shouldn't consider if you invest in the ecosystem, i mean if i would buy 4000 hive worth of sps would this be leech?
Well I've seen so much posts about that in the past, like if powering down was the worst thing in the whole universe. Glad to see not everyone agrees with that.
If we could get a known figure in here, boosting Hive's popularity, well I'd take that even if he was to power down half his stake any day.
I like the CSI rating, and have wondered how it's calculated.
251/485 = 0.517, close... but the self-vote must offset something.
The code for hive-tasks is a jumbled mess of obfuscated code. I looked once trying to get some algorithms out of it.
we can talk with the owner =) I was wondering as well...
That would be @steemchiller, who wont even sniff at HIVE.
I fully agree. I noticed some people have become overly reliant on this metric, and that sometimes even creates hostility between Hivers.
Yes, the last part is my concern, and not just hostility but it's bad for one's mental health as well. I'm sure a lot of users who are here and provide value may not be able to help that they have to sell or power down stake, to then also be told how shitty they are because of it can't be nice.
KE is just a "tool" (and it's a very nice one tbh).
Jjjeeee I don't quite understand what you're talking about. I do understand other things. I do understand your graph. Where can I find it to see my votes?
Oh, and I save money for essential purchases, but I also try to save to get a better vote. And I read that if you invest in the platform, it's good for everyone.
peakd analytics lets people check their own votes but you can't see those of others, for that I use hivetasks.com
Information is important and while it does provide a lot of clues into what you aim for, i find even with info the answers are rarely black or white
I appreciate that you addressed the major concern about the Krampus Coefficient here -- and yes, I am mentioning the full name because something named for a child-beating, child-eating demon is not likely to be a good metric when assessing the behavior on Hive of human beings. The intent of using Krampus suggests the cruelty is the point. Now it might work in Splinterlands, because we have a mythical setting to deal with there ... but out here where people are coming to Hive because it saves real lives, where people are using their Hive to help one another, where people are supporting their local economies in countries that have no functional currency, the Krampus Coefficient is reductionist at best. That's not even accounting for what happens because of trades on Hive Engine not being broken out for separate assessment.
There is also the question of whether Hive can afford to run any more good content creators off. Splinterlands CANNOT keep Hive going alone ... it needs its content creators, some of whom live where powering down is the difference between keeping things going for their family or not. It has not been the easiest five years in the world. I say AGAIN, and will point us to the account: the plan for the Krampus Coefficient was to use it as tool of beating folks into compliance. See the account Plonkety Piano. Look at who supported it -- the cabal lord who loves demonism, and who also came up with the Krampus Coefficient -- and look at who stuffed it before it could be unleashed across the chain to mock and terrorize without regard to the humanity of the people in question -- just based on the Krampus Coefficient. One of the people targeted had powered down to help another Hiver in need -- but no consideration was given there. This is wrong. This is evil.
I totally respect your thoughts! Everyone has their own opinion about the things here and there, like acidyo's post. But come on!!! You already shouted this at peakd server, shouted at friendlymoose post and now here the same thing! People already got the point!! Soon, people will see these repeated things as SPAM!
How do you know if Hive's 138K known users already got the point? I'd love to see data on that... in the meantime, know this about me: I come from a lineage in which it took saying the same thing for 248 YEARS for people to get free. You think you trying to threaten me with SPAM is going to even bother me? Now, I appreciate you letting me know I can retool. But silencing me? I have a huge contralto voice and I type just as well -- you simply cannot do that. I have already seen the beginning of the intentional reign of terror that there was going to be. You can go check the facts or not. You can even agree with what has been done if you do. You can ignore me. What you can't do is silence me. I will speak on this everywhere that I can, as long as I feel it is necessary. Understand that.
!PIZZA
$PIZZA slices delivered:
(2/10) @danzocal tipped @acidyo
Moon is coming